Tuesday, July 28, 2009

Upcoming ISI Show: Harold Camping Debates Dr. James White, July 28 & 29

UPDATE: Due to the overwhelming response to this two-day radio/Internet debate please help us take the burden off of WNYG's servers by listening to the program on the Dividing Line link available at http://www.aomin.org/!



From Dr James White:

We just confirmed that next Tuesday and Wednesday, July 28th and 29th, I will be debating Harold Camping on the Iron Sharpens Iron radio program on the topic of Camping's teaching that the church has ceased to exist. As some of you may know, Harold Camping has been teaching for years now that the church age has ended; that no one can get saved in the church any longer; that true believers should flee the churches, etc. I wrote my book Dangerous Airwaves in response to Camping's teachings on this topic. Well, Chris Arnzen has once again found a way to make a debate happen that nobody thought could ever happen. So, for two days next week we will debate this topic. I will defend the biblical position that Christ's church remains His bride and that Christians are to be faithful in their service to Christ through her, and that Harold Camping's wild-eyed gymnastics with the text, his use of allegory and numerology, etc., is a gross abuse of inspired Scripture. Make no mistake about it: this will end up being a debate over how you handle the Bible and allow God to speak. As I said in response to Camping years ago in Dangerous Airwaves:

The grammatical-historical method of interpretation is a means of guaranteeing that we are hearing what the text says, not what we wantthe text to say. This is a vitally important point, especially when it comes to the Scriptures. When reading secular texts we are not nearly as tempted to insert a foreign meaning into the words of the author, since it is rare that such a text would be given sufficient importance to warrant the effort. We naturallyapply sound rules of interpretation to such documents since we are not at all threatened by theresults. But when it comes to the text of the Bible, much more is at stake. But if we are consistent in our beliefs, and truly want to hear what the Scriptures are saying and not what we want them to say or feel they should say, we need to have a means of reading the text that does not allow us to slipour own thoughts into the text under the guise of interpretation. The Bible needs to say the same thing in each language, in each culture, in each context, or it cannot be the means of communicating the truth to us that Christians believe it to be. The grammatical-historical method allows us to be both honest and consistent with the text of the Bible.

The fundamental reason we must reject allegorical interpretation of the biblical text is really quite simple: it is unverifiable. That is, there is no possible way to determine that the results of using allegorical methodology have anything whatsoever to do with the actual meaning of the text. One man's allegorical understanding can have no compelling force upon the thinking of another, for that person may well seesomething completely different in the text. Since the means provided by human language to communicate meaning are by-passed in the allegorical method, there are no "safety nets" to keep one from wandering off into the most fanciful of "interpretations" of the text. Hence, the person who says "the allegorical meaning of this text is such and so" cannot claim the actual authority of the text for his interpretation, for the actual source of the interpretation is not the text itself but the mind of the interpreter. This is why we say there can be no compelling force to one's allegorical interpretation, for it is merely personal, and if anyone else accepts it, it is because they choose to trust the allegorical interpreter rather than the text itself. Allegorical interpretations can have no more authority than the one proclaiming them.

When applied to the biblical text this methodology is devastating. The authority of the text is destroyed. No allegorical interpreter can honestly say, "The Word of God says," for in reality, the Word of God has been replaced with the more or less fancifulthoughts of the interpreter himself. The Christian doctrine of inspiration sets the Christian Scriptures apart from all other claimed divine revelations in that Christians believe the Scriptures are God-breathed. This means the written word communicates to us infallibly the very speaking of God in a miraculously personal manner (Matthew 22:31). The authority of the Word is not based upon the interpreter but upon the inspired text itself. The message of the written Word is the same through the course oftime. Without this affirmation, the Word becomes a purely subjective document, incapable of communicating divine truth with certainty.


This point cannot be over-emphasized. Allegorical interpretation destroys biblical authority. It replaces the divine message with the imaginations of the interpreter, and as such opens the door wide for every kind of abuse of the text. False teachers, seeking to draw away disciples after themselves (Acts 20:30), utilize such means to release themselves from the unchanging standards of Gods Word and insert, under the guise of thus sayeth the Lord, their own pet doctrines and teachings. The Christian who is untaught and unstable, a novice in the Word, can easily be taken in by such a teacher who exudes confidence and often hides the false teachings behind a veneer of self-professed orthodoxy. So when we defend proper exegetical methodology, we are not merely arguing about tangential issues, we are, in reality, defending the very authority of the Word, and its ability to speak with clarity and force to each generation and in every place.

242 comments:

1 – 200 of 242   Newer›   Newest»
daninkorea said...

Great! We look forward to hearing it, may God's truth be proclaimed for His glory!

iGreg said...
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iGreg said...

So this gentleman does not believe the Bible uses symbolism? Then he must think Jesus is a lamb with hooves and wool.

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
[Revelation 13:8 - KJV]

rfoner said...

When the scriptures tell us:

"All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: (Matt 13:34 KJV)

Or, when we read: "I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:" (Psalms 78:2 KJV) Or even when the prophet Ezekiel stated, ". . . they say of me, Doth he not speak parables:"(Ezek 20:49 KJV)

Are we to believe these parables are to be understood literally???

Al said...

This should be an interesting debate. However, Harold Camping's method of interpretation is not coming from his head, as you will see during the debate. He is not interpreting the text of the Bible through any means of personal interpretatation, but of solid use of the Bible itself comparing scripture with scripture and being careful not to force an interpretation, but of letting the Bible interpret itself.

I'm looking forward to this debate and I pray that all who listen and Mr. White himself will listen with a humble and open heart, asking God to show truth.

mozart said...

I have listened to Harold Camping many times in the past. I agree with Al, that his "method of interpretation" of the Bible does not come from his head; it comes from another part of his body.

Al said...

Mozart, Do you consider yourself a Christian? If so, how can you in all good conscience, be so rude in response to my post? As Christians are we not to humbly come before God and seek truth? This is a very serious matter we are debating and for you to make light of it and ridicule Mr. Camaping does not show the love of God.

It's sad when I see people claiming to be Christians act the way you did. It shows me your mind is closed to what Mr. Camping has to say and it's a real shame that you will miss out on some major blessings. I pray God will have mercy on you and open your eyes and ears to hear His truth.

Sheila said...

What a blessing this discussion shall be!

Lockheed said...

Mozart is right, Camping's "interpretations" are skubalon.

watchman_2011 said...

Al, people like Mozart are described in the Bible as mockers and slanderers in the last days. They're not interested in looking for truth. Rather, they look only to entertain people, just like pastors and everything about the external church. You already know this but I'll respectfully remind you: pay no attention to them.

On another note, notice how this "Dr." White person uses advertising to monetize from his blogs? Just like churches - it's all about the money and popularity.

To all those who believe in the free-will doctrine, I urge you to read my ad-free blogs about salvation:

http://salvation-part-1.blogspot.com/

http://salvation-part-2.blogspot.com/

http://salvation-part-3.blogspot.com/

May the Lord Jehova have mercy on us all as He will return on May 21, 2011 to rapture His elect!

Sean said...

I pray that God's message will get out and spread like wild fire. Go to www.familyradio.com click on the online literature section. Read the free online books called "We are almost there", and "To God be the Glory". You will have a greater understanding prior to the debate! These books are difficult to explain, except there is truth in them. Man can know the day when Christ can return. The verse, no man knowth...is not understood, most of the time. Revelation 3:3 clearly teaches believers will know the time of the end, as well as 1 Thess chapter 5. This debate will be great! Praise God! I will be listening.

Pastor Mark said...

From some of the comments being posted it seems that some have lost sight of whose Word is being slandered, not Mr. Camping's words but God's Word, by Mr. Camping.
Mr. Camping is a false prophet and his teachings are not based on the Scriptures but on personal opinions. God has a purpose for the Scriptures and they are for His glory and truth to be known.

But Mr. Camping has seized them and twisted them to serve his own purposes, inventing theories and events from his own imagination.
God is the Interpreter of His own Word and He will not be mocked, by the efforts of man to hide the true meaning of Scripture beneath their many flowery words of deception.

II Peter 1:20-21
20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation . 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. ESV

I am praying that God and His Word will be seen as victorious on Tuesday and Wednesday. Dr. White has already shown and exposed in the past the many errors contained in Mr. Camping's teachings and I hope by God's grace they will be clear to all who have ears to hear.

May this debate be for the glory of God and His Word!

watchman_2011 said...

I just realized that I acted very boastfully when I wrote "ad-free blogs". I apologize for this worldly behavior.

BTW, Mark, major prophetic books in the OT like Isaiah and Jeremiah warn about pastors leading their sheep in the wrong direction. Obviously, God is also referring to them as false prophets, teaching things like the free-will gospel and that Christ will "come as a thief in the night". I know it's not the fault of the pastors...this is just how God designed it.

However, let us continue to pray for the Spiritual truth and come to God with a broken and contrite spirit.

Fardawg said...

When MAY 21, 2011 comes and goes without incident I hope and pray that you who follow this false prophet will see him for what he is and turn back to God. I imagine that, despite this unveiling, many will believe whatever twisting this man does to his own prophesies and continue to follow and defend him, a la the Seventh-Day Adventists and the "Great Disappointment".

rfoner said...

1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.

4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.

5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.

6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.
Ezek 34:1-6 (KJV)

Brogonni said...
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Brogonni said...
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Brogonni said...
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rogerg said...

22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

God tells us in the Bible that the covenants (and those people who are central to covenants) were used by Him as an allegory. Logically speaking then, everything else in the Bible which pertains or relates to the covenants must be seen as being part of the allegory too, otherwise it would be impossible for us to understand God's intent; that is, everything within the Bible which relates to the allegory, fall within the allegory. These two covenants are the two points upon which the whole Bible revolves, therefore, one can conclude the Bible has primarily been written by God primarily as allegory .

WFME said...

What time does this show start?

Insight2 said...

Wow, a debate between my two favorites, it will be intersting to listen to. I think though it will come down to White just saying the way Camping interpretes scripture is'nt the correct way to do so and Camping saying the scriptures are to be study as parables line upon line and precept...

psa100verse3 said...

May God give the hearers during the debate ears to hear !

Proverbs 25:2 [It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.

Jeremiah 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore’s forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

Revelation 17:5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Isaiah 5:6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

Hebrews 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.

Jeremiah 25:29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.

1 Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?



Louis Erasmus

LAMBSFURY said...

The false religion known as "Campingism" is a cult religion that is similar to other cults like the Branch Davidians, Jim Jones and the People's Temple and other false cults like the Watchtower. They all believe in the false doctrine of "progressive revelation" after the Bible was completed and think their respective cult leader is the "appointed one" to bring the final revelation to the masses. The Campingites think that Daniel 12:4 and Daniel 12:9 refer to Camping himself....just as the followers of David Koresh though these verses refer to Koresh himself. The reality is, the Bible was completed and unsealed when the final revelation was given to John - Revelation 22:10, Revelation 22:18. The faith was "once" delivered to the saints - Jude 1:3, and we are not to add to it. Because the Campingites are guilty of Revelation 22:18 and believe that their appointed messiah Camping is the one to alter the faith once given to the saints, is why they have further fallen away with other apostate doctrines like "annihilation" for the unsaved, an absurd teaching that Christ's Second Coming is "invisible," a total denial of all humanity who ever lived standing before Christ at the end, as Matthew 25:31:46, Romans 14:10-12, II Cor 5:10 plainly teaches....and Camping and his cult followers also believe that Christ's atonement on the Cross was just a "parable" with no reality to it. They claim that Christ died "twice" despite the Bible clearly saying Christ died ONCE - Hebrews 9:12,26,28. The disciples of Camping also believe that only Harold Camping has ever understood the Bible correctly in all human history....they also believe that Harold Camping is prophesied in the Bible. So, the reality is, Camping and his followers are a cult, on their way to hell.....

rfoner said...

LambsFury's fury seems to have gotten the best of him. Nevertheless, the truth remains the same.

9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;

10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country. (Ezek 34:9-13 KJV)

APRIL said...

Mr. White:

At some point in your interview with Mr. Camping, would you kindly ask him why he deceptively claims that 2 Pet. 3:8's second time comparison of "a thousand years as one day" (with the Lord" - not with him) "repeats" the first time comparison of "one day as a thousand years"?

Mr. Camping has also stated that the second time comparison of 2nd Peter 3:8 "confirms" the first.

As you may know, only the first time comparison of 2nd Peter 3:8 is applied by Mr. Camping to his timeline as a major timepath of 7,000 years from 4990 B.C. to 2011 A.D. (According to Mr. Camping, the "7 days" of Gen. 7:4 is now to be interpreted as 7,000 years, based on his deceptive use of 2nd Peter 3:8.)

However, I see there are two (2) different time comparisons presented by God in 2nd Pet.3:8:

1) One day (which is AS a thousand years);

and...

2) A thousand years (which is AS one day).

Of course, Mr. Camping is inserting a very tiny microscopic grain of truth into his claim that the second time reference "repeats" the first time reference. There IS repetition in the verse. The following six words are "repeated":

"one" (2 times)

"day" (2 times)

"as" (2 times)

"a" (2 times)

"thousand" (2 times)

"years" (2 times)

The actual meaning of 2nd Peter 3:8 is not "repeated" at all. If 2nd Pet. 3:8 was written:

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years,

and one day is with the Lord as a thousand years",

...then the second time reference would be indeed be "repeating" the first. But it wasn't. The verse clearly says,

"...be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years,

and a thousand years as one day."

Also, the "one thing" is not referring to only one of the two time comparisons. The "one thing" is how God views time differently than we do. There are two more time comparisons found in Psalm 90:4. 2nd Pet. 3:8 uses two time comparisons to show us this "one thing". Harold Camping is very clever at using words and phrases to deceive.

Please ask Mr. Camping for me why he is being deceptive about this major timepath of his. You may have other issues on your mind for your interview with Mr. Camping, but his teaching on this verse is one of the most obvious evidences of his increasingly deceptive teaching practices.

Thank you.

LAMBSFURY said...

For those who are confused about progressive revelation that cults claim is happening today, these are examples of Camping's progressive revelations that violate Revelation 22:18.

"And he said unto them, It is NOT FOR YOU TO KNOW the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his OWN POWER." Acts 1:7

Via progressive revelation the campingites make this say:

"And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons UP UNTIL 1988, which the Father hath put in his own power."

This is how the Campingites "add" to the Word of God. It does not say "up until 1988"

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father ONLY" Matthew 24:36

What does the word ONLY mean? The Father ONLY? It does not take a Greek expert to understand. The Father ONLY knoweth of that day and hour. Via progressive revelation Camping and his disciples "take away" the words of this book - Rev 22:19, and "delete" the word "only" and add to the Word -Rev 22:18, and insert Harold Camping.

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be TORMENTED day and night FOR EVER AND EVER" Revelation 20:10

Via progressive revelation the Campingites alter this verse and say"

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night FOR 5 MONTHS TO ever and ever"

They "add" the phrase "5 months" and "change" the word "for" to the word "to."

"Tribulation and ANGUISH, upon EVERY SOUL OF MAN that doeth EVIL, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile" Romans 2:9

Via progressive revelation Camping alter's this verse to say:

"Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil BY REJECTING CAMPING'S DATE SETTINGS, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile"

They massacre this verse to make it a Harold Camping prophesy, as they "add" to the Word. The Campingites claim that all verses of a conscious suffering do not apply to all the unsaved, but only those unsaved who reject Camping. They think the Bible is all about Camping.

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and EVEYR EYE SHALL SEE HIM, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." Revelation 1:7

Via progressive revelation Camping makes this verse say:

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall NOT see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

The phrase "every eye SHALL see Him" becomes "every eye shall NOT see Him"

Via progressive revelation, Camping alters verses and "add" to the Word of God.

"But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee." Matthew 11:24

Via progressive revelation Camping alters this verse to say:

"But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable FOR THE BONES of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee."

Camping "adds" the phrase "bones" in these verses via progressive revelation in order to make his annihilation god survive.

These are just a few examples of Camping's progressive revelations. All cults claim to use the Bible, but "rewrite it" and "add" to it when they decide. Because these cults look to Daniel 12:4 and Daniel 12:9 as a fulfillment of their cult, instead of the completion of the Bible (Rev 22:10, Rev 22:18) they in their pride think they have authority to add to the Word of God.

YongJiang said...

People in church do not know the time of the coming Judgment, as stated in Jer8:7.

Jeremiah
8:4 Moreover thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD; Shall they fall, and not arise? shall he turn away, and not return?
8:5 Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return.
8:6 I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle.
8:7 Yea, the stork in the heaven knoweth her appointed times; and the turtle and the crane and the swallow observe the time of their coming; but my people know not the judgment of the LORD.
8:8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.
8:9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?
8:10 Therefore will I give their wives unto others, and their fields to them that shall inherit them: for every one from the least even unto the greatest is given to covetousness, from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.
8:11 For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
8:12 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore shall they fall among them that fall: in the time of their visitation they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.

LAMBSFURY said...

"Take ye heed, watch and pray: for YE KNOW NOT WHEN THE TIME IS. For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for YE KNOW NOT WHEN the master of the house COMETH, at EVEN, or at MIDNIGHT, or at the COCKCROWING, or in the MORNING" Mark 13:33-35

The Camping cult claims these verses are "deleted" as they violate Revelation 22:19.

The verses are clear that mankind will not know exactly when Christ will return.

The Campingites claim that Camping's crystal ball of witchcrafts can know when. So, since the Campingites claim that they know the day, how about the hour? Jesus says we will not know when Christ will return at:

1. Evening
2. Midnight
3. Cockcrowing
4. Morning

So, what has your progressive revelations declared to you Campingites?

You don't know the hour, do you apostates?

What is the hour of Christ's return?

You don't know!!

Who does?

The Father ONLY - Matthew 24:36

Your progressive revelations of witchcrafts has failed you Campingites!!

And your worst fears will come true:

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: THE RICH MAN ALSO DIED, and was BURIED; And IN HELL he lift up his eyes, BEING IN TORMENTS, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I AM TORMENTED in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and THOU ART TORMENTED." Luke 16:22-25

In order for Camping to make his annihilation god of Baal survive, he claims that these verses are a Harold Camping date setting prophesy for those who are alive at the time of the rapture.

Well, Campingites, that is not what the verses say, do they?

There are 2 people in view

1. Lazarus who was saved
2. The rich man who was unsaved

Lazarus DIED. The rich man also DIED and was BURIED. So this absurd idea that this refers to those "alive at the rapture" by Camping is apostate, as both DIED. The rich man DIED and was BURIED.

And what happened after? He went to HELL.

And was hell annihilation? No!!

He was conscious and in TORMENT.

Jesus further confirms that truth by saying

"and THOU ART TORMENTED."

Dead is not dead. Jesus confirms that. Torment awaits all the unsaved after they DIE and are BURIED.

The Campingites would love for this to say:

"And thou art annihilated."

Sorry Campingites!! The Bible defeats you, and defeats your apostate ministry.

You are under the power of Satan

LAMBSFURY said...

Camping's apostate progressive revelations has been a completed failure. As we look at Camping's failed date settings over the last 30 years:

1978 - Camping declares to his Alameda Church that the rapture would occur in the fall of 1978.

September 6, 1994 - By insisting he knew the exact point the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14 began, Camping concluded that Sept 6, 1994 was the end.

September 29, 1994 - Harold Camping's prediction #3.

October 2, 1994 - Harold Camping's  prediction #4

March 31, 1995 - Harold Camping's prediction #5. (Claimed he knew the cycles of the universe,called Ceros, and this can predict the end)

December 25, 1995 - Harold Camping's prediction # 6.  (Claimed there was Biblical evidence for Christ's return on Christmas.)

Camping is a false prophet under the power of Satan. Despite his failed predictions over the last 30 years, based on his 100% failure rate, he concludes that his May 21 date is 100% absolute.

I guess when you have a 100% failed track record that gives one the authority to say any future dates are "absolute."

Camping in his stubborn pride refuses to repent of his date settings...

The fact is, if Christ came tonight, the Campingites would be taken as a thief. Because the Campingites are only fixed on one date....so if Christ came "before" that date, the Campingites would be caught off guard......and in complete terror as they come to the realization that eternal torment is true.

What did Christ say? Be ready all the time and expect it any moment, because:

"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as YE THINK NOT the Son of man cometh." Matthew 24:44

Despite your lame time paths and calculations, Christ comes in an hour when ye think not. When you least expect it, a time that has nothing to do with your time paths...

And what happens at the end?

"Let them be confounded and TROUBLED FOR EVER; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish" Psalm 83:17

You can't be "troubled" forever, unless you have conscious existance forever. Eternal torment is coming.

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and THEM WHICH DO INIQUITY; And shall CAST THEM into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be WAILING and GNASHING OF TEETH. Then shall THE RIGHTEOUS SHINE FORTH as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 13:41-43

Just as the "righteous" shining forth in heaven applies to ALL the elect, those unsaved who are cast into the furnace, where they suffer weeping and gnashing of teeth, applies to ALL the unsaved who ever lived.

Judas will suffer weeping and gnashing of teeth forevermore.

Camping's annihilation god is destroyed by Jesus, and the Campingites will be in absolute terror as eternal weeping and gnashing of teeth in hell awaits them.

Share that on your next Family Radio Bible study!!

darrell said...

One benefit of this debate is that the focus will be on the word of God. Hopefully this can be done without engaging in personal attacks. Sadly, Lambsfury has a reputation for using language that should not be countenanced by Christian groups. If you visit the familyradiolisteners@yahoogroups.com website (a site that was designed for Family Radio supporters but is now being used to attack FR) you would be appalled by the language being used by “Christians”. It reminds me of Saul’s role in the stoning of Stephen (acts 7:58). Please don't allow yourself to become part of this character assassination attack on Harold Camping. The Bible warns teachers to always be gentle especially in the face of adversity.

Ac 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man’s feet, whose name was Saul.


Lambsfury's assertion about "progressive revelation" is false. Harold Camping does NOT teach that we can receive information from God outside the Bible. He does not believe we can receive revelation by speaking in tongues or through dreams and visions. Mr. Camping simply teaches that God sealed up information in the Bible and this information will be unsealed (i.e., revealed from God’s word) at the time of the end (Daniel 12:4-9). It just so happens that most of this information was written in parabolic form (e.g., dragon with 10 heads/horns) and one cannot understand these things using the historical grammatical method of interpretation.

Da 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Da 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.


So, while some may not agree with Harold Camping's theology, this does not give them the right to distort his message. I encourage the listeners of the debate to visit www.familyradio.com and read books "To God Be the Glory" and "We're Almost There". These two books will help you understand exactly what Harold Camping teaches as well as the hermeneutic employed to compose these teachings. Once you have a good grip on the doctrines being proposed you may be less likely to follow those who are throwing stones.

Fear God and give glory to Him,
Darrell

darrell said...

LR,

I’d like to elaborate on “Christians” who engage in character assassination. In a normal church setting this sort of behavior is frowned upon. But today, the internet provides Christians with a setting where they can say and do things that would be forbidden in the church. Some church members use the internet as a “loop hole” to attack other denominations or their leaders. As I stated earlier, some of these people are like Saul who held the clothes of those who brutally murdered Stephen. Now, we all know that Saul was just as guilty as the others. Likewise, if we are involved with a group that uses character assassination we too are guilty of spiritual murder.

1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.


Now, I know that most people in the church are kind-hearted. Many have no idea of the types of personal attacks being levied against Harold Camping. But there are a few who are well aware that certain brawlers have crept into the midst and in these circles they have welcomed with open arms. Oftentimes they use the word “Campingnite” not to a formal name to describe Family Radio listeners but more this term is used to slander Mr. Camping by inferring that his listeners trust Camping more that the Bible. Now, perhaps this is true of various groups but even so Christians don’t use this type of slander unless the members of a particular group use these terms to describe themselves. So, we must make sure that our debate is conducted lawfully by not allowing brawlers to dominate the discussion.

1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

Tit 3:2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

PS: I did not mention all the other words used by these brawlers because I’m certain that the moderator would not appreciate that sort of language on this blog.

Fear God and give glory to Him,
Darrell

darrell said...

I think it's important to note that the purpose of the June 28-29 debates concerns the "end of the church age" doctrine. Mr. Camping believes the Bible teaches that Satan will be loosed to rule over all churches during the great tribulation. As a result, the church age will cease in the sense that God is no longer using the church to evangelize the world. This doctrine is derived from verses like Matthew 24:15 where we read that the abomination of desolation will be set up in the "holy place". Additionally, in II Thessalonians 2:3 we read that the man of sin (Satan) will take his seat (i.e., rule) in the “temple of God” after a time of falling away.

Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the HOLY PLACE, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

II Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the TEMPLE OF GOD, shewing himself that he is God.

What is Dr. White's eschatological position regarding the spiritual condition of the church during the great tribulation?

PS: sorry in advance for grammatical/spelling errors--I'm a horrible writer.

Dr. Ken Matto said...

Yesterday I had the chance to contact Dr. White and forward to him with source materials some of the teachings of Camping. I hope he really challenges the teachings of Camping since Camping is not accountable to anyone and therefore has created many false teachings and heads up a world wide cult akin to Heaven's Gate and Jim Jones. Camping uses allegory which is not the same as comparing spiritual with spiritual. Allegory makes the Bible subject to the interpreter by allowing the person to create meanings for passages at will and Camping does just that in the creation of his false date setting and anti-church attitude. His dates were all wrong in 1994 and they will be all wrong in 2011. I agree wholeheartedly with Lambsfury and Pastor Mark. Camping is a dangerous individual because of his "fanciful interpretations." He has taken the Bible and made it his personal, private book using it to his glory. One of his ex-employees told me that Camping has a hatred for churches and Pastors. He pretends to be humble but anyone who refuses counsel is nothing but arrogant. All of us need the counsel of others, no Christian can stand alone in this world but Camping thinks he can.

APRIL said...

Darrell has posted here as Harold Camping's right hand man on the internet. He states: "I think it's important to note that the purpose of the June 28-29 debates concerns the "end of the church age" doctrine."

Of course Darrell feels the need to send this suggestion. He is desperately hoping that the debate will stay squarely focused on an issue that both sides will be able to argue over until the cows come home, thereby allowing his date-setting spiritual leader (a/k/a "pastor") to emerge unscathed. He is aware that the Camping calendar gospel is their swiss cheese full of gaping holes.

Let's face reality. Family Radio is just as much of a "church" as the actual churches are. But the major difference is their special, limited-time offer of an exciting date prediction. Sadly, that is the attaction for many people, both inside and outside the churhes. The fact is, many church members are also under the hearing of the Family Radio calendar gospel.

Another major Family Radio timeline hoax is the teaching that Christ will not return "as a thief" - for all those who accept and believe in May 21, 2011.

The Family Radio teachers are trained to emphasize "but ye brethren, are not in darkness" in 1Thess. 5:4, while skimming quickly past the little word "overtake": "...that that day should OVERTAKE you as a thief." They also carefully avoid the phrase "worthy to escape" in Luke 21:36. In order to "escape" something, there needs to be an actual threat.

Revelation 3:3 is another verse the FR folks dearly cherish because, if not read with care, it can *seem* to bolster their case that Christ will not return as a thief for all. However, when read carefully, the verse does NOT say that Christ will not return as a thief.

Mr. Camping accuses the church of using a "cudgel" concerning eternal torment, and in his next breath he labels his 5-month hell a "horrible, horrible end".

There are now so many perverted and twisted teachings heard from Family Radio, it's hard to know where to start when trying to expose them. I believe that the most direct way is through the Camping timeline.

Re 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

A WITNESS FOR CHRIST, formerly ASK DR PAISLEY said...

1) Just a few questions

How can the host / moderator of this debate be impartial when he is a longtime friend of 15 years of James White?

2) Where did James White get his theological degree and when? Where does he teach as a professor? Be specific.
Your bio on him reads:
"Dr. James R. White is a professor, having taught Greek, Systematic Theology,"

3) What is the financial arrangement between yourself and James White regarding the sale of books, videos, CD's, etc.?

Because of your bias towards James White, wouldn't it be in the interest of fairness, to remove yourself as moderator and put in your place someone who is impartial?

Ralph

LAMBSFURY said...

All false Christian cults, and apostate chistian churches all have one thing in common. The false doctrine of progressive revelation that violates Revelation 22:10 and Revelation 22:18

"I have seen by divine revelation the total annihilation of this country and many other parts of the world. I have seen this all by divine revelation" Jim Jones - The People's Temple (Jones quoted in Mills, 1979:128).

"But as we view history it appears that God had set some kind of LIMIT on how much Bible knowledge would be understood during most of the history of the church"  Harold Camping, Are You Ready? Page 15

"I personally believe that God has raised up Mr. Camping to teach these things.Some people thought Moses should not have been God's sole messenger but they soon discovered that this was a big mistake"  Darrell Lockridge of Latter Rain

"After the temple was destroyed, He used Ezra to teach truths concerning the rebuilding of the temple (a kin to the latter rain) as reveiled in the book of the law of Moses Yet, we see that 26 other men stood by Ezra to help disseminate the information. This is the method that God uses to teach His people. So, the masses are to simply sit down and listen carefully to make sure they understandthose who are tasked with giving the sense"  Darrell Lockridge of Latter Rain

" there should be no question that God is unsealing His Book in this day in a unique way, at the promised time of the End, and through Harold Camping ALONE" Tom Holt of Latter Rain

"The path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established." The shining of the light has been PROGRESSIVE, just as the light of early dawn gives way to sunrise and the full light of a new day. Viewing matters in the light that was available, they have at times had incomplete, even inaccurate, concepts. No matter how hard they tried, they simply could not understand certain prophecies until these began to undergo fulfillment. As Jehovah has shed more light on his Word by means of his spirit, his servants have been humbly willing to make NEEDED ADJUSTMENTS.-- Jehovah's Witnesses: Proclaimers of God's Kingdom (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1993; p.146)

"In conclusion, the process of Salvation has been a A“progressive revelation of God...." Fagan, The Writings of Livingstone Fagan: David Koresh as Messiah,

"The subject of Revelation is God's last effort to bring into unity all the diversified bodies of opinion that claim to be under Christ. So there's only one acid test for anybody that claims to be enlightened in regards to the knowledge of God. SHOW ME THE SEALS and if they can't they have to wait then they have to wait UNTIL SOMEBODY CAN." David Koresh - FBI Negotiation Tape March 1993

"See that's the thing about these groups. Again they have this concept called "progressive truth". Truth is always in flux, PROGRESSING, ADVANCING. "New light" is coming." David Bunds - Former Branch Davidian

"Truth is an ADVANCING TRUTH. There are mines of truth YET to be discovered by the earnest seeker." Ellen G. White

"....That God is active throughout history, bringing new truths to light. Historically, Adventists have understood that God is active in our own time, using the term 'present truth' to denote truths which were not present in earlier times, but which God has led his people to discover. Further, there is the parallel idea of 'PROGRESSIVE REVELATION,' which suggests that God has not revealed all truth at some previous time, that revelation is not confined to the thought and behavior patterns of the prophets and disciples of old, but that God lives and is active today and tomorrow" Seventh-day Adventist Doctrines and Progressive Revelation," Journal of the Adventist Theological Society 2/1 (Spring 1991):77-92.

Progressive Revelation after the Bible was completed = A false gospel.

LAMBSFURY said...

"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are CLOSED UP and SEALED till the TIME OF THE END. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." Daniel 12:9-10

The hell-bound Campingites look at the Bible as a direct fulfillment of Harold Camping, their cult leader.

Ask any Campingite who Daniel 12:9 is referring to, and they will say "Harold Camping and the Family Radio ministry"

That sounds real special, but it is not Biblical. The Campingites, like any cult, go "outside" the Bible and think their cult is being referred to.

At the time Daniel was writing, the New Testament was not completed yet. The book was "closed up" and "sealed" till the time of the end. When the final revelation was given to John, God said:

"And he saith unto me, SEAL NOT the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for THE TIME IS AT HAND. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Revelation 22:10-11

Notice the similarity between Daniel 12:9-10 and Revelation 22:10-11

In Daniel 12:9-10, the book is closed and SEALED, as God talks about the righteous and the wicked. In Revelation 22:10-11, the book is UNSEALED, as God talks about the righteous and the wicked.

Why is the book open and unsealed? Because what was closed to Daniel was opened by Christ:

"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the WORDS are CLOSED UP and SEALED till the TIME OF THE END. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." Daniel 12:9-10

"And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to OPEN THE BOOK, and to LOOSE the seven SEALS thereof." Revelation 5:5
The closed book during the time of Daniel is opened by Christ.

God revealed everything that needed to be revealed and the command is to "seal not" the sayings of this book - Rev 22:10

The New Testament is the progressive revelation of the Old Testament. Once the New Testament was completed that ENDED progressive revelation.

But the Campingites instead of looking to the Bible for the fulfillment of Daniel 12:9, go outside the Bible and their their messiah Camping fulfills it, as they violate Rev 22:18

The faith was ONCE delivered to the saints - Jude 1:3

It is not subject to be altered by the cults of today, like the Campingites.

LAMBSFURY said...

"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for THE FAITH which was ONCE delivered unto the saints."  Jude 1:3

"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye HAVE LEARNED; and avoid them."  Romans 16:17

The faith was once and only once delivered to the saints.  Progressive revelation after the Bible was completed is false.

Below are a list of over 20 heresies from the satanic organization known as Family Radio and their hell-bound disciples.

1. Claiming progressive revelation after the Bible was completed, in violation of Revelation 22:18.

2. Embracing annihilation and denial of eternal torment.

3.  Believing free will and a denial of Total Depravity.

4. A resurrection of bones, and a denial of people being resurrected consciously.

5.  A denial of a final Judgment Throne where all stand before Christ.

6.  A denial of a visible return of Christ.

7. Multiple date settings in violation of Revelation 22:18.

8.  Negating verses such as Acts 1:7, Matthew 24:36, Mark 13:32-35 in violation of Revelation 22:19.

9. Stating all verses of torment and suffering do not apply to all the unsaved, just the enemies of Family Radio.

10. A denial of the atonement work of the Cross, and claiming it was just a parabolic demonstration.

11. Claiming the Bible teaches about Allah

12.  Claiming the church age ended on May 21,1988, when no such verse states so.

13. Claiming the command to depart all churches, even faithful ones, in 2001(With the exception of the Alameda Fellowship)....when no verse states to depart a faithful church.

14.  Claiming that Daniel 12:4 and Daniel 12:9 refer to Camping and Family Radio, instead of the holy men of old, like John of Patmos, whom God used to complete the Bible.

15.  Claiming that Family Radio is the Latter Rain of the Bible.  No verse states so.

16. Degrees of punishment only means a greater shame of bones.

17. A belief that one can escape the conscious wrath of God by suicide

18. Claiming that the faith that Paul, Peter and John had was a false faith, as they did not believe in date settings....and that the faith today has to be "different" than it was 2000 years ago.

19. A re-writing of verses "when convenient" such as Revelation 20:10 and Revelation 14:11

20.  Claiming that the Son is not eternal, a denial of the Trinity and Godhead.

21. Claiming that the Alameda Fellowship(Camping's Church)is the holy temple where God comes down to man.

It may be that Family Radio has commited more spiritual atrocities than even the RCC church.

Family Radio may be the most apostate organization in human history.

Tom

darrell said...

Ok. The brawlers have officially taken over the discussion. Hence forth this blog will be used to assault Harold Camping and Family Radio listeners.

Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

LAMBSFURY said...

The annihilationists of Family Radio must make verses "go away" to bring glory to their annihilation god.

"Let them be confounded and TROUBLED FOR EVER; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish" Psalm 83:17

In Psalm 83:17, you cannot be "troubled FOREVER, unless one has conscious existance FOREVER. 

Being "troubled" or "vexed" or "afraid" in the Hebrew is a condition that lasts FOREVER.  The Campimgites will try to alter the meaning of the verse, because Camping has ordered it.

"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and ANGUISH upon EVERY SOUL OF MAN that doeth EVIL, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile"  Romans 2:7-9

For those who are elect, they have eternal life.  For those who are unsaved, ANGUISH comes upon every soul of man that doeth evil.  Not annihilation, but anguish.

The argument that the Campingites will try to make is that these verses only apply to the enemies of Camping, as they feel the Bible is all about Camping.

"Then shall he say also unto them on THE LEFT HAND, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"  Matthew 25:41

"Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?"  Matthew 25:41

Those on the left hand are clearly conscious, speaking to Jesus as Jesus condemns them.  Who are those on the left hand? Who are those on the right hand? All humanity.  All the unsaved are those on the left hand.  All the elect are those on the right hand.

How do the unsaved say these words to Jesus if dead is dead? This is where the Campingites will try to convince you that those on the left hand are those who disobeyed Camping and those on the right hand are those who supported Camping.  They want the Bible to be all about Family Radio and Camping.

"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If ANY MAN WORSHIP THE BEAST and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and HE SHALL BE TORMENTED with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb"  Revelation 14:9-10

Any man who worships the beast will be TORMENTED with fire and brimstone.  Judas worshipped the beast.  He will be tormented with fire and brimstone.  Dead is not dead

The Campingites want you to think that any man who worships the beast just refers to those who are against the Open Forum program and not all the unsaved who worship the beast.

Continued................

LAMBSFURY said...

Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into OUTER DARKNESS, there shall be WEEPING and GNASHING OF TEETH. For many are called, but FEW ARE CHOSEN."  Matthew 22:13-14

All those not elected, even though many are called, suffer WEEPING and gnashing of teeth in hell....a conscious suffering

The Campimgites want you to think that this refers to just the many called under the Family Radio signal.  They want this to be a Harold Camping prophesy

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also DIED, and was BURIED; And IN HELL he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame"  Luke 16:22-24

Here Jesus, God Himself is telling us what happens to an unsaved person after he DIES and is BURIED.  He is tormented in hell.  Not annihilated, but tormented.  The rich man DIES and is BURIED...and AFTER this he is very conscious and tormented.  The Bible defeats Camping....but in order to make this "go away" Camping concludes that the rich man who DIES and is BURIED, suddenly becomes those who are "alive" at the rapture.  Just as Lazarus is a picture of all the elect in heaven who are "comforted" the rich man is a picture of all the unsaved in hell who are tormented.

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were CAST ALIVE into a LAEK OF FIRE burning with brimstone"  Revelation 19:20

The whole dominion of Satan is CAST ALIVE into the lake of fire......Do a word study on the word "alive" and see how it never can refer to something dead.

Camping makes this "dead bones." 

The reason why the unsaved are "cast alive" into the lake of fire, is because in the furnace of fire, the elect weep and gnash of teeth.  Dead is not dead.  Being cast alive somehow means "dead bones" according to the Campingites

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."  Matthew 13:41-43

Two groups are in view.....them which do inquity, and the "righteous."

The righteous, meaning all the elect, shine forth in heaven

The wicked, those that do iniquity, ALL the unsaved, suffer weeping and gnashing of teeth in hell....dead is not dead

The Campingites want to convince you that this just refers to the Family Radio organization...that the righteous are just listeners of the Open Forum and the wicked are those who rejected Camping.  That is totally absurd.  It refers to all humanity

Judas will suffer weeping and gnashing of teeth in hell.  Guaranteed. 

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to RESERVE the UNJUST unto THE DAY OF JUDGMENT to be PUNISHED"  II Peter 2:9

The Campingites wants you to think that God is "reserving" BONES unto the Day of Judgment to be punished, but "never aware of it."  They make a mockery of the Word of God.

And that the "bones" of Sodom have it "more tolerable" than the "bones" of Capernaum - Matthew 11:23-24

And that the "bones" of false teachers have "greater" condemantion - James 3:1

Do you see how Camping and all his disciples have departed from the faith?

However, they have their favorite lines to help "divert" and that is "nobody has understood these verses before."  It is a common tactic they use to make these truths go away.

APRIL said...

Attn. Darrell,

I don't wish to be one of the "brawlers" you refer to. Will you patiently answer my questions the way you patiently answer Lili's questions in your Yahoo group?

Where exactly do you insert a literal "thousand years as a day" into your timeline from 2nd Pet. 3:8?

If you do not insert "a thousand years as a day" into your timeline, how do you explain that the 1st time comparison of 2nd Pet. 3:8 is a valid literal "code", but the 2nd is not?

Is it because the number 7,000 happens to somehow fit well into Harold's prediction?

Why do you think God gave us two time comparisons in 2nd Peter 3:8 if only one is to be used as a literal timepath?

Do you agree with Mr. Camping that the 2nd time comparison "REPEATS" (or "confirms" or "paraphrases") the 1st? That is what he told me when I asked him about it on the Open Forum.

If you have any answers at your disposal, would you kindly share them here in your role as a Family Radio teacher? I'm not brawling, now. I'm just asking for an explanation regarding this one major timepath.

Thank you for your time.

LAMBSFURY said...

Whenever you speak to a Campingite, you have to remember what their secret hidden agend is.....and that is, to protect the reputation of their so-called divine organization and their cult leader, Camping.

So, it does not matter how absurd of a doctrine Camping comes up with, the Campingites must be loyal to it.

They know that if one new so-called "unsealing" is exposed for being false, it threatens the reputation of all their pathetic unsealings.

One new doctrine of the religion called Campingism is that the Cross in 33AD was "a fake." Camping claims that the Cross did not atone for sins and that Christ died "twice." Now, when you read the Bible:

"For Christ also hath ONCE SUFFERED FOR SINS, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death IN THE FLESH, but quickened by the Spirit:"  I Peter 3:18

"For in that he died, HE DIED UNTO SIN ONCE: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God"  Romans 6:10

"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his OWN BLOOD he entered in ONCE into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."  Hebrews 9:12

"Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now ONCE in THE END OF THE WORLD hath he appeared to PUT AWAY SIN by the sacrifice of himself."  Hebrews 9:25-26

"So Christ was ONCE OFFERED to BEAR THE SINS of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. "  Hebrews 9:27

"But this man, after he had offered ONE sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God" Hebrews 10:12

Christ paid for sins ONCE, at the END OF THE WORLD....

"Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now ONCE in THE END OF THE WORLD hath he appeared to PUT AWAY SIN by the sacrifice of himself."  Hebrews 9:25-26

And Christ had to be "made of a woman" to redeem men:

"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, MADE OF A WOMAN, made under the law,To REDEEM THEM that were UNDER THE LAW, that we might receive the ADOPTION OF SONS of sons." Galatians 4:4-5

The work of the Cross was not a parable, it was real. God had to be "made of a woman" in order to redeem men, so the elect can be "sons of God."

Despite these clear truths, and clear truths that Christ died ONCE, if Camping says Christ died TWICE and the Cross was a fake, the Campingites must be obedient. They cannot disobey their so-called divine organization. They must protect their reputation at any cost, no matter how many verses they massacre, no matter how many truths they destroy.

The Campingites know the Bible defeats them....but their authority is not the Bible, is the word of Camping, as he is the false god they serve.

darrell said...

April,

I thought the purpose of this blog was to discuss the end of the church age doctrine—which will be the focus of the debate. Since you agree with the end of the church age doctrine you might offer a testimony about why you left the church.

As for 2 Peter 3:8, you are correct that this involves two equations. The question is, how do these equations fit the context? As you know, the context is focused on the flood of Noah and the end of the world. We believe the year of the flood was 4990 BC and the end of the world will come 7000 years later in 2011 AD. In this respect, we would use the equation “ 1000 years = 1 day” when looking back to Noah’s flood. On the other hand, we would use the equation “one day = 1000 years” when going from the flood to the end of the world. Both of these equations can only be understood through eyes of the calendar which God has provided in the Bible.

2Pe 3: 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Now, Harold Camping is not the only theologian who has attempted to compose a calendar from the Bible. During the church age, most Christians believed that Bishop Usher’s calendar was faithful to the Bible. However, in recent times, many theologians have begun to recognize that Usher’s calendar was filled with errors. But I have not found any reputable theologian who is able to refute Mr. Camping’s calendar. Sure, a lot of people may feel uneasy about using this information to determine the time of Christ’s coming. But we should at least recognize that God has placed a very accurate time information in the Bible. Many theologians recognize that the 70 weeks of Daniel provide the time-line of Christ’s first coming. Moreover, many Christians understand that the sign of the fig tree points to the rebirth of Israel in 1948 AD (which was a sign that Christ was at the doors). So, many Christians understand that the end is very near. But most don’t realize that judgment begins with the house of God prior to the end (I Peter 4:17). And when this judgment comes, God commands the believers to “flee” when they see the abomination of desolation in the “holy place” (church).

Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)


April, good to hear that you will not become embroiled in this character assassination campaign against Mr. Camping. I think all of us know certain teachers which we believe are unfaithful to the Bible. Still, Christians don’t go around calling members of these congregations White-ities or Graham-ities or Osama-ites. We simply greet them in the name of Christ and try to walk as gently and humbly as possible when discussing God’s Holy word.

Fear God and give glory to Him,
Darrell

Sean said...

Everyone who knows LAMBSFURY, knows that he acts in a disgraceful manner at the yahoo group "Family Radio Listeners." His never ending criticisms and insulting slang words against Family Radio only show the state of his soul. The Bible says by their fruits we will know them. Anyone who reads his comments will likely be reading slander and lies about Harold Camping, not the truth.

LAMBSFURY said...

"Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in LIKE MANNER as ye have seen him go into heaven." Acts 1:11

Among the many apostate doctrines of the Campingites is the ludicrous doctrine that Christ's Second Coming is "invisible."

The reason why Camping and his slaves like this idea is because their secret hidden agenda is to take away the glory of Christ and to glorify Camping and his satanic organization.

And it also helps to promote their annihilation god. After all, if they can make Christ's return "disappear," they can make all standing before Him "disappear."

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the GLORIOUS APPEARING of THE GREAT GOD and our Saviour Jesus Christ"  Titus 2:13

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see THE SON OF MAN COMING in the clouds of heaven with POWER and GREAT GLORY."  Matthew 24:30

"For as the LIGHTNING cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE."  Matthew 24:27

"For as the LIGHTNING, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also THE SON OF MAN be in his day."  Luke 17:24

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall WAIL because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY" Revelation 1:7-8

Are these verses indicating an "invisible" Second Coming? This is what the Campingites want you to believe.

In Revelation 1:7, God clearly says that EVERY EYE will SEE him. No human being will escape this glorious event. Jesus even told wicked Caiaphas:

"Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto YOU, Hereafter shall ye SEE the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN" Matthew 26:64

Jesus promised Caiaphas that he would see Christ returning on the clouds of heaven, as Jesus quotes from Daniel 7:13. The high priest knew what Jesus was quoting from and that is why they condemned him to death.

Every human being who has ever lived will consciously see Christ on the Last Day, as Revelation 1:7 states.

The Campingites via their apostate progressive revelation "delete" this verse and claim every eye will NOT see Him. Not only do they say that every eye of all humanity will NOT see Him, but they say His return is not visible.

Rest assured, as Christ's First Coming was visible, so will His Second.

Dead is not dead and Camping's annihilation delusions will come to an end on the Last Day, as all humanity will see Christ return.

The hell-bound Campingites take away the glory of Christ, because they want to glorify Camping instead.....as Camping is the false god they worship.

APRIL said...

Darrell,

Your comments reveal your mistaken belief that the upcoming debate between Harold Camping and James White is about them - and you - and your fellow supporters. Now you are asking for MY testimony to try to make this about me.

I'm sorry you were not able or inclined to answer my questions about 2 Pet. 3:8 directly. Just like Harold, you danced around them with the usual song and dance routine. (Is saying that a "personal attack"? I know how fragile you are, but as a Family Radio spiritual leader of 500, you really should grow a spine when it comes to the feeble way people express themselves.)

Here is my testimony, but I'll make it about your group, instead, Darrell. The first red flag I saw as a member there was the way Harold began teaching that the Ninevites somehow needed to hear the warning of "yet 40 days" in order to repent. I was also shaken up by the way you and the rest of the FR teachers always lifted up the believers as very important participants in God's salvation program. It was always about the "true believers" with you, just like you are making this event about you, rather than the truth of God's Word. You also continually defended every perverted doctrine that came from Harold while banning every worthwhile comment or question offering some correction or insight which Harold had not yet authorized.

Lu 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

The "sign" was Jonah, himself, as a type of Christ. You and your group is looking past the sign of Christ to Harold's sign that says "May 21, 2011".

Here's another question for you Darrell. Who are all the "thee's" in Jeremiah 30:11 referring to? Harold teaches in his famous Jeremiah study that that the all the "thee's" refer to the elect, but the last two "thee's" refer to the churches. What do you think?

Jer 30:11 For I am with THEE, saith the LORD, to save THEE: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered THEE, yet will I not make a full end of THEE: but I will correct THEE in measure, and will not leave THEE altogether unpunished.

You see, Darrell, although I left the church, I don't believe that we are to come out and turn around and point at anyone, as Harold teaches. 1st Peter 4:17 defines the "house of God" that comes under judgment first as "US", not "THEM".

Finally, here is what the Bible says about your "progressive revelation" or whatever you call it:

Jer. 6:16: Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the OLD PATHS, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

LAMBSFURY said...

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to RESERVE the UNJUST unto THE DAY OF JUDGMENT to be PUNISHED" II Peter 2:9

"And I saw THE DEAD, small and great, STAND BEFORE GOD; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and THE DEAD were JUDGED out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works" Revelation 20:12

"But I say unto you, That EVERY IDLE WORD that men shall speak, they shall GIVE ACCOUNT thereof in THE DAY OF JUDGMENT."  Matthew 12:36

"But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall ALL STAND before the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then EVERY ONE OF US shall GIVE ACCOUNT OF HIMSELF TO GOD"  Romans 14:10-12

The reason why Camping and his slaves want to make Christ's return "invisible" is to take away the final Judgment Day when all stand before Him.

All the unsaved are RESERVED unto the DAY OF JUDGMENT to be PUNISHED, as they will give account of every idle word, as they stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ.

The churches throughout the centuries correctly understood this as all humanity resurrected alive, standing before Christ.

However, according to the hell-bound Campingites a "new unsealing" has taken place by Camping's crystal ball of witchcrafts. It is not "people" that are standing before Christ and being judged, it is the "chemical remains" of people, as the Campingites claim that rotten bones, broken ribs, teeth and feces is what God is "reserving" to stand before Him.

This is the glorious new unsealing that the Campingites claim how the Bible corrects us!!!!

APRIL said...

P.S. - to Darrell, Sean, etc.

I have already been called the 'Jezebel of the Internet'. And that's probably the one of the milder attacks. Did I cry when I heard that? Of course not. It's to be expected.

Am I the language police? No. How we conduct ourselves is between us and God - and the group owners and moderators. Just say what you want to say and get over yourselves already.

LAMBSFURY said...

"To WAIT AND SEE of Christ's return is indeed to be in the fall of 1994 IS NOT ENOUGH....those who "WAITED TO SEE" would be CAUGHT WITHOUT SALVATION.  It would be guaranteed that they would have to face the Judgment Throne of God, be found guilty of their sins, and plunged into hell forevermore"  HAROLD CAMPING - Are You Ready, Preface, Page 1

Back in 1993, Camping declared that those who "waited to see" and did not believe his satanic date-setting progressive revelations "from the heart" would be "caught without salvation."

His false dates came and went, but Camping and his slaves still saw Camping as the "special divine prophet" that has to be obeyed.

SO, the reality is, it does not matter what date Camping pulls out of his crystal ball of witchcrafts, according to Camping and his slaves, you must believe Camping's dates, no matter how many he declares.

Now Camping is saying the same thing about 2011....those who "waited to see" would be caught without salvation.

So, the real secret hidden agenda that the Campingites have, is that one must OBEY the DIVINE ORGANIZATION, no matter what they say, no matter when they say it.

The first thing the Campingites will say when May 21 passes is come up with a new "backup date" and that will be the "new date" that all have to "obey" or else one is caught without salvation.

Family Radio and the satanic Alameda fellowship is to be rejected.

They are not of God

LAMBSFURY said...

The Watchtower published this in 1917:

"Also, in the year 1918, when God DESTROYS THE CHURCHES wholesale and the church members by million, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of Christianity. (The Finished Mystery, 1917 edition, p. 485)

The Watchtower predicted that the church age would end in 1918, and that only the "divine organization" of the Watchtower was "appointed" to show the masses what truth is...

The Campingites claim the same "end of the church age" doctrine, but it was the Watchtower that came up with the doctrine first!!

The Watchtower states:

"At Revelation 14:9-11 (KJ) worshipers of the symbolic beast and his image are said to be tormented with fire and brimstone. This cannot refer to conscious torment after death....The smoke, associated with their fiery destruction, ascends forever because the destruction will be eternal and will never be forgotten. " Reasoning, pp. 172-173

The watchtower long before the Family Radio cult started to declare that the Bible teaches annihilation. Despite Camping's claim that this is a "new unsealing" the doctrine of annihilation was poisoning the world long before the Campingites started poisoning the world....so much for this "new unsealing." It is an old lie that has been around since the Sadducces!!!

The Watchtower states:

"The path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established." The shining of the light has been PROGRESSIVE, just as the light of early dawn gives way to sunrise and the full light of a new day. Viewing matters in the light that was available, they have at times had incomplete, even inaccurate, concepts. No matter how hard they tried, they simply COULD NOT UNDERSTAND certain prophecies until these began to undergo fulfillment. As Jehovah has shed more light on his Word by means of his spirit, his servants have been humbly willing to make NEEDED ADJUSTMENTS.-- Jehovah's Witnesses: Proclaimers of God's Kingdom (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1993; p.146)

Notice what the Watchtower says....that people COULD NOT UNDERSTAND the Bible until the Watchtower came along. Just as Camping says today!!

The Watchtower published dozens of "dates" when they thought the end would be:

1897 "Complete destruction of the 'powers that be' of 'this present evil worlds - political, financial, ecclesiastical - about the close of the Time of the Gentiles; October A.D. 1914." (C.T. Russell, Studies in the Scriptures, IV, p. 622, 1897)

They predicted in 1897 that the end would come in 1914...and when 1914 came and went they said:

1914 "Studying God's Word, we have measured the 2520 years, the seven symbolic times, from that year 606 B.C. and have found that it reached down to October, 1914, as nearly as we were able to reckon. We did NOT SAY positively that THIS WOULD BE THE YEAR." (Watchtower, November 1, 1914, p. 325)

Just as Camping and his slaves all said "We did not say 1994 would be the end" and start backtracking.

The reality is, the Family Radio cult is just an extension of the Watchtower!!!!

LAMBSFURY said...

"But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not SLEEP, as do others; but let us watch and be SOBER. For they that sleep SLEEP in the NIGHT; and they that be DRUNKEN are drunken in the night. But let us, who are OF THE DAY, be SOBER, putting on the breastplate of FAITH AND LOVE; and for an helmet, THE HOPE OF SALVATION. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain SALVATION by our Lord Jesus Christ"  I Thessalonians 5:4-9

The hell-bound Campingites think that these verses refer to Camping's date settings.....

Camping uses these verses to say these are about "date settings" and his May 21 prediction.

Which of course is absurd, as Paul initially spoke these words to the church at Thessalonica, and they did not know about May 21. Do these verses apply to the church at Thessalonica? Of course they do....and has applied to every believer in history.

The Campingites think that certain verses in the Bible only apply to them and their cult.

What truths are these verses stating?

The elect will not have the day overtake them as a thief? How?

1. Being children of the light
2. Being children of the day
3. Being awake and sober
4. Putting on the breastplate of faith and love
5. Putting on the helmet and hope of salvation
6. The elect are not appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation by Christ

That's funny...."date setting" is not mentioned

Camping is not mentioned

Calendars are not mentioned

Time paths are not mentioned

Your pathetic divine organization is not mentioned

These verses are all about becoming saved and walking in the light of God's Word....as this is what ALL the Bible talks about.

Those who are SAVED, are the children of the light. The Day will not overtake the elect as a thief because God has saved them, and as a result they have the hope of salvation.

The Campingites somehow think this refers to "date setting."

Sorry Campingites

The Bible defeats you and your cult once again..

LAMBSFURY said...

"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."  Matthew 6:15

"And his lord was wroth, and DELIVERED him to the TORMENTORS, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So LIKEWISE shall my heavenly Father do ALSO unto you, if ye from your hearts FORGIVE NOT every one his brother their trespasses."  Matthew 18:34-35

Jesus warned what happens when there is evidence when one cannot forgive others, giving evidence they are unsaved.

God the Father will DELIVER him to the TORMENTORS.

Why does this not say delivered to the annihilators?

So, an unsaved person who died hundreds of years ago, who never forgived others, will be DELIVERED TO THE TORMENTORS.

The tormentors await all the unsaved to torture them forevermore...

Tribulation and ANGUISH, upon EVERY SOUL OF MAN that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile"  Romans 2:9

"Let them be confounded and TROUBLED FOR EVER; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish"  Psalm 83:17

"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and HE SHALL BE TORMENTED with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of THEIR TORMENT ascendeth up FOR EVER AND EVER: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name" Revelation 14:10-11

"And his lord was wroth, and DELIVERED him to the TORMENTORS, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So LIKEWISE shall my heavenly Father do ALSO unto you, if ye from your hearts FORGIVE NOT every one his brother their trespasses."  Matthew 18:34-35

Jesus gives this clear warning.....those who are unsaved, as evidenced by their lack of forgiveness from the heart, will be DELIVERED TO THE TORMENTORS by the Father. And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever.

In order to make Matthew 18:34-35 "go away" Camping claims that Matthew 18:34-35 only applies to those who reject "his date settings." And it only lasts 5 months.

Now really.....what does being delivered to the tormentors for "not forgiving from the heart" have anything to do with rejecting date settings?

Is not forgiving from the heart synonymous with rejecting date settings?

The Campingites know that their doctrines are completely absurd, but they must be obedient to their false god.

If you look at any Campingite, they know they can't prove any doctrine they believe Biblically. Because they know their "authority" is quoting page xxxx of Camping's books. That is their authority, not the Bible.

The Campingites are not of God:

"For if he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER JESUS, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or ANOTHER GOSPEL, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." II Corinthians 11:4

The Campingites follow another gospel that has nothing to do with the Bible...

And all their followers will be plunged into the gates of hell where they will be tormented forevermore...

A WITNESS FOR CHRIST, formerly ASK DR PAISLEY said...

Bill Alnor's Questions for Apologist Author James White Concerning his "Doctoral Degrees"
(James White did not answer these questions as of August 10, 2004. But he did send Bill Alnor a polite note. However, he did not give permission to post it.)
To obtain the proper context of this list of questions go to the August 2004 E-update
ã 2004 Christian Sentinel

1. An AR-Talk participant said that you hold two unaccredited doctoral degrees. Can you explain how you earned two doctorates, from which institution(s) and the exact dates they were conferred on you.
2. Why did you not attempt to obtain your doctorate(s) through a regionally accredited institution, or from an institution accredited by some federally recognized agency?
3. Did you have to take any examinations such as the Graduate Records Examination (GRE) in order to enter the doctoral program?
4. What are the nature (or type) of the doctorates? (Ph.D., Th.D. Ed. D., etc.)
5. Did you write any dissertations? What is/are the title(s) of your dissertation(s)? How many pages did they contain? Were any of these works you had published prior to the dissertation?
6. Did you defend you dissertation(s)? What was the date and place of the defense(s)?
7. Who were the members of your Ph.D. examining committee, if any?
8. Is/Are your dissertations available through the any dissertation databases such as the UMI Dissertation Abstracts, ProQuest or others?
9. Did you enter into any agreements with firms like UMI Dissertation Publishing to publish your dissertation, if any?
10. If you had a Ph.D. committee, did any of its members demand any rewrites or revisions of your work?
11. Were any "outside readers" involved in your Ph.D. committee if you had any?
12. Did you write a dissertation proposal?
13. Did you defend your dissertation proposal? What were the dates of the defense of your proposal?
14. Is you dissertation proposal (if any) on file anywhere where it can be publicly examined?
15. How many classroom hours (credit hours) did you take in the doctoral program? During what years did you do your course work? Did you actually spend any time in a classroom with real professors?
16. Did you take any "preliminary exams" or intensive exams demanded by your doctoral program before submitting your dissertation proposal, if any? What was the date of your exams?
17. Were any of your doctoral programs on line or conducted via videotape? Were life experiences or prior publications considered to have any relevant credit toward your doctoral work?
18. Who were your professors? Did they have academic credentials, holding Ph.D.’s from regionally accredited universities?

Sean said...

Is Christ coming back for a divided church? No. The Bible indicates that division = desolation and who can deny that the churches are inexorably divided? How many denominations are there? I have no idea.

Christ is coming back for the 5 wise virgins, not the 5 foolish virgins. The 5 wise virgins have oil in their lamps and can see where they're going.

(Psalm 119:105) NUN. Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Those who walk in the light keep God's commandments and do not follow false prophets in sheep's clothing who walk in darkness. The sheep know Christ and hear His voice in the Bible. In Matthew 7, we see that many false prophets who come in sheep's clothing will claim that they did many things in Christ's name on that day. These are, no doubt, pastors of churches and many who are claiming to know Christ at this time. Many are are gathering together and doing many things in Christ's name, but what will the answer be on that day?

Luke 13:25-28 paints a similar picture. God is warning us that many Christians will be left behind on that day. We see in Luke 13, that they will claim that Christ taught them in their "streets." Compare with Revelation 11:8 and you will find that "streets" is the same word as "street", which relates to Babylon the Great.

Revelation 18:2 says that Babylon is "become" the habitation of devils. How can Babylon be the world when the world is already the habitation of devils? Do you see that there is something to what Family Radio is teaching?

Of course, Daniel 12:10 says that none of the "wicked" will understand the unsealed words, but only the "wise" will understand. Wisdom comes from the LORD and only the wise have the Holy Spirit to direct them to truth. Many are deceived today during this time of spiritual testing that the Bible calls the great tribulation. The love of many has waxed cold and God's commandments are no longer kept. Iniquity is abounding in the churches and many are deceived. May some still come out before Judgment Day comes.

APRIL said...

Two straightforward verses, very plain, very clear, and still meaning what they have always meant, regardless of what anyone says. The two verses the FR date-predictors just can't seem to figure out.

Mt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mr 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

In their wild and frenzied attempts to "rescind" these verses (a word used by Harold for his progressive revelation hoax: "rescinded by God") the Family Radio teachers have even perverted the Trinity by teaching that the Jesus, the Son of God, is ALSO the Father!

Whenever the explanations become too bizarre for even Harold, himself, the standard disclaimer follows: "This is all a mystery we will never understand."

Isaiah 9:6 does not mean that Jesus IS the Father. Jesus is "as a Father" to his adopted ones.

Jesus is "one" with the Father just as the believers are "one" with Christ.

Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, even as we are one:

And the latest explanation coming forth from FR is that the "Son" of Mark 13:32 is actually satan.

A WITNESS FOR CHRIST, formerly ASK DR PAISLEY said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
James Swan said...

Sorry, no calling Dr. White names Ralph. Tone it down, or I'll delete all your comments.

A WITNESS FOR CHRIST, formerly ASK DR PAISLEY said...

I do apologize for calling White a car salesman.
Now then i would suggest that any one who has interest in this man just remember "Google is your friend.
If he is what he says he is then show us the history of education with dates ,where and when now that should not be very hard for him to do.also is the host of the debate which by his own words is a longtime friend of Whites going to step aside and let someone else
host the debate?
ralph
I believe that I have toned it down what say you ?

Sending Forth The Gospel said...

When reading the opening comments of your blog spot I sensed that I was reading the cover of some "sensational" super market tabloid with enough adjectives and subjective comments to sway a mindless zombie, which I hope are not the sort that subscribe to your radio program. This is not a 7th grade student body presidential campaign, "pick me"... "pick me". You should present your opponents, whether you agree or disagree with them, in fair standing. King David lived by this standard while Saul viciously pursued him.

The Bible presents many examples of how we should conduct ourselves in fidelity and obedience to the word of God. After all the action of "debate" comes from the mind of man. We stand in the presence of the Lord always, this is His word, which He is allowing you to discuss. There is no debate. The Lord is true and every man a liar.

Remember the Lord did not associate His name with man made institutions, if this were the case, National Israel along with the Pharisees and Sadducces would still conduct the Lords service. He instituted National Israel and the Church age to glorify His name. Now they have robbed Him of His glory and lifted up man.

When Christ first came to mankind only a handful of people recognized His glory and Name. The predominant theologians of His day could not see Him. Now we are in the midst of His second coming and still the predominant theologians can't see Him.

watchman_2011 said...

Can we all clear our minds and look at some Biblical verses re: May 21, 2011? Let's stay away from criticizing "Dr. This or "Dr. That" or "Camping" and look at what's found in the Bible. And no Lambsfury, the information below does not violate Rev. 22:18 as the facts are taken straight from the Bible.

http://may-21-2011-part1.blogspot.com/

http://may-21-2011-part2.blogspot.com/

http://may-21-2011-part3.blogspot.com/

May the Lord Jehova have mercy on us!

darrell said...

Thanks for the tip on the round table discussion. It seems the main complaint against Mr. Camping is that he neglects to quote other theologians, creeds or confessions when he teaches. One pastors stated “how can you not quote from great preachers like Calvin, Luther and Spurgeon?” They also complained about Family Radio listeners who protested when their pastor failed to clarify the meaning of the word “believe” while preaching on Acts 16:30. Apparently, these FR listeners worried that this pastor was leaning towards Arminianism (a free will doctrine).

I think it’s also puzzling that the moderator of the upcoming debate continually referred to Mr. Camping’s teachings as “heretical”. So, don’t expect a fair shake from this gentlemen during the debate.

LAMBSFURY said...

"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath WARNED YOU to FLEE from THE WRATH TO COME" Matthew 3:7

John warned the pharisees and sadducees of the wrath to COME. What is the wrath to COME?

The wrath to come is Judgment Day and eternal torment

The Campingites claim that the wrath upon the world is only for 5 months and only applies to those who rejected Camping's date settings.

You hear Camping all the time on his Open Forum say that all those of history past, even those identified with great evil, like the Hitler's of the world, all have "escaped" the wrath TO COME, because they have physically died.

Since mankind can take his life in his own hands by suicide, Camping hints at the fact that there is a way of "escape" from his 5-month doctrine, and that is by physical death.

So, Judas will never stand before Christ, according to Camping, Hitler will never stand before Christ, but the only ones who do are those who happen to be alive on May 21. If you die on May 20, you have "escaped" the wrath to COME according to Camping and his slaves.

The Campingites want you to think that the Judas' and Hitler's of the world receive the "same" penalty of ceasing to exist AS THE FLOWERS that die.

The wrath to come will come upon every unsaved human being. What is the wrath to come?

"The same shall drink of the wine of THE WRATH OF GOD, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and HE SHALL BE TORMENTED with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of THEIR TORMENT ascendeth up FOR EVER AND EVER: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." Revelation 14:10-11

The wrath "to come" is eternal torment upon the unsaved.

Remember how a Campingite thinks.....they have these 3 doctrines of faith:

1. Only Harold Camping has understood the Bible
2. The Bible is all about Harold Camping
3. Family Radio and the Alameda Fellowship is where God comes down to man.

This is how the cults think.

The wrath TO COME comes upon EVERY unsaved person who ever lived.

Several months ago on the Open Forum, Camping confessed that he was in great grief over his unsaved brother who died unsaved, despite years of witnessing to him.

Camping then said he was in great relief as he said he was so glad eternal torment was not true.....so you can see the emotional factors to why Camping flees to annihilation. Since he brother died unsaved, Camping tries to save him by creating false doctrines.

Judgment Day is coming...and ALL humanity will consciously endure it:

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to RESERVE the UNJUST unto THE DAY OF JUDGMENT to be PUNISHED" II Peter 2:9

Mark G said...

Please Help
I am trying to find a church in my area Northern NJ to attend that has the truth and will pretty much assure me that I will be saved. It doese'nt matter which one of the thousands of denominations it is, as long as they have the truth and all the rules and things "they" tell me to do for salvation. So any pastor, priest or church leader please let me know if you have the Truth that will lead to my salvation. God is the Only One that can save you not the church!!
"The dogs have a mighty appetite; they never have enough.
The shepherds also have no understanding; they have all turned to thier own way,
each to his own gain, one and all."
[Isaiah 56:11]
Praise the Lord God Almighty!!!

LAMBSFURY said...

Jesus warned the SCRIBES AND PHARISEES of these truths:

"Woe unto you, SCRIBES AND PHARISEES, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore YE shall RECEIVE the GREATER DAMNATION."  Matthew 23:14

"Beware of the SCRIBES, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts; Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive GREATER DAMNATION."  Luke 20:46-47

"And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of THE SCRIBES, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts: Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: THESE shall receive GREATER DAMNATION."  Mark 12:38-40

In front of all, face to face, Jesus warned the SCRIBES AND PHARISEES of GREATER DAMNATION.

They will receive GREATER damnation. Their penalty is more severe. The same truth is seen in Matthew 11:

"Woe unto thee, Cho-ra'-zin! woe unto thee, Beth-sa'-i-da! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Si'-don, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be MORE TOLERABLE for Tyre and Si'-don at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Ca-per'-na-um, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be MORE TOLERABLE for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee."  Matthew 11:21-24

It will be MORE TOLERABLE for Sodom and Gomorrha in the Day of Judgment, than for the cities of Israel.

Greater damnation & More tolerable = Degrees of punishment

Now, the scribes and pharisees are long dead. The cities of Capernaum, Chorazin are long gone....but they WILL consciously endure Judgment Day and will suffer WORSE than the wicked cities of the world, like Sodom. Why?

"And that servant, which KNEW HIS LORD'S WILL, and prepared not himself, NEITHER DID ACCORDING TO HIS WILL, shall be BEATEN with MANY STRIPES." Luke 12:47

Those who are identified with the Bible, and know the Lord's will, but remain unsaved will suffer GREATER damnation, as they will be beaten with MANY stripes.

How do the Campingites blow these verses off to protect their annihilation god? They claim that all these verses quoted do not apply directly to whom Jesus was talking to. After all...what is "greater annihilation" or annihilation that is "more tolerable" than other annihilation. It can't be reconciled.

So, the Campingites claim that when Jesus spoke to the scribes and pharisees directly, that it was a parable and only applies to the enemies of Camping and his 5-month doctrine.

Do you see how absurd the Camping religion is?

watchman_2011 said...

Church denominations = confusion of tongues (Tower of Babel) when man decided to create their own doctrines (i.e. free-will) hoping to reach God.

Free-will is dangerous in that it is not God's will. If you think about it, God anticipated Adam would sin, which is why Christ became the Lamb slain from before the foundations of the world. You can also look at John 1:13 regarding our will to be saved.

Chances are, if you're still looking for a faithful church, you will find NONE since they teach some sort of free-will stuff.

I will repeat this: major propethic books in the OT discuss the dangers of listening to pastors. Pray to God for wisdom, in that He might open your spiritual eyes and ears. I was also a big part of my church back then but then I started checking out other churches and felt God pulled me away as they taught no truth.

If you're a pastor or a church member, I don't mean to make you feel bad. As a matter of fact, I am writing this in Christ's love. I know I can't make you see truth, only God. I only wanted to share what God has done in my life.

LAMBSFURY said...

"For I TESTIFY unto EVERY MAN that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If ANY MAN shall ADD unto these things, God shall ADD unto him the PLAGUES that are WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK"  Revelation 22:18

One of the most severe warnings in the Bible and it's application is upon all who violate it, no matter when they lived.

The FIRST important truth is.....

The word "PLAGUES" in this verse is Strong 4127 in the Greek, and is translated as "plagues" and "stripes" and "wounds."

Language of a BEATING.  The plagues are the plagues of HELL, that are ADDED to those who adds to His Word.  It always refers to those alive, not to bones that are dead. In every case this word is used, it refers to those living.

The SECOND important truth.......

The more one "adds" to the Word of God, the more the plagues/stripes/wounds will be ADDED by God.

Meaning, DEGREES OF PUNISHMENT

The Bible clearly teaches degrees of punishment - Luke 12:47, Matthew 23:14, Matthew 11:24

The THIRD important truth..........

"......God shall ADD unto him the PLAGUES that are WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK"

THIS BOOK, is the Bible.  The Bible when talking about punishment for sin, is talking about PLAGUES, not "annihilation."  A conscious punishment of PLAGUES is what is WRITTEN in THIS BOOK, not ceasing to exist or a judgment upon dead rotted bones.

The FOURTH important truth is that the PLAGUES that are added, apply to ANY MAN that adds to His Word.

Meaning, anybody since the beginning of time. The mormons are a clear example of those who add to His Word. No matter when they lived, PLAGUES/STRIPES will be ADDED to them. They will consciously experience this.

The Campingites are also guilty of this by their multiple date settings, and re-writing verses in the Bible in order to harmonize with their apostate doctrines.

They all will suffer conscious punishment and endure degrees of PLAGUES and STRIPES in hell.

Just as Jesus promised the Pharisees and Scribes in Matthew 23:14 that they will consciously suffer "greater" damnation.

As God closed out the Canon, Jesus declared the most severe warning in the Bible. Not only are the Campingites guilty of Revelation 22:18, they "take away" the truth of Revelation 22:18 by stating it will be something "people will not be aware of it" as it only refers to THEIR BONES.

Family Radio is under the power of Satan and under the wrath of God.

LAMBSFURY said...

"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for THE FAITH which was ONCE DELIVERED unto the saints." Jude 1:3

The faith was ONCE delivered to the saints....that is delivered to the holy men whom God used to write the Bible - II Peter 1:21

Camping is not included.

This idea from the Campingites that believers the past 2000 years all had a false faith and that even the holy men of old whom God used to write the Bible, all "did not understand" is a delusion from the Campingites.

Camping thinks that nobody understood the Bible until he came to the world.....and that true faith has been only understood since Harold Camping was born.

This is the absurd doctrine of the Campingites and this is their secret hidden agenda....to get the world to worship Harold Camping and his teachings, and serve him as God.

When we look atcommentaries of Jude 1:3:

"Which was once given, that it may NEVER BE CHANGED." Geneva Study Bible

"Earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. He exhorts to contend for the faith delivered ONCE FOR ALL, the faith WITHOUT INNOVATION, the gospel of the apostles in distinction from the adulterations of FALSE teachers. The DOCTRINE OF A  PROGRESSIVE REVELATION after the apostles is NOT found in the New Testament."  People's New Testament

"All the fundamental truths. Once delivered - By God, to remain UNVARIED FOR EVER"  Wesley Notes

"once, &c.-Greek, "once for all delivered." No other faith or revelation is to SUPERCEDE IT. A strong argument for resisting HERETICAL innovators"  Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary

"We ought to contend earnestly for the faith, in opposition to those who would corrupt or deprave it; who creep in unawares; who glide in like serpents."  Matthew Henry

The Campingites come like serpents trying to change the faith once given to the saints, claiming that the Cross is a fake, and claiming that "bones" stand before Christ, and claiming one is annihilated like the flowers.

Jude 1:3 is a command to reject cults like Campingism who pervert the Word of God.

darrell said...

I'd like to correct a statement that Chris Arnzen made during the 24 July round table discussion. Chris indicated that Mr. Camping tells his listeners to only read the Bible while at the same time he encourages them to read books he's written. I suppose this statement is meant to convey the idea that FR listeners are brain washed. But the truth is, Chris’ statement is false. Like most radio stations or churches, Mr. Camping promotes materials that are in agreement with Family Radio's ministry. However, Mr. Camping constantly reminds his audience to not truth him or books he’s written, but to only truth the Bible. The point is, everyone should be like the Bereans by examining studies written by pastors/teachers to ensure that they are faithful to the Bible.

Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I've been a Family Radio listeners for almost 20 years and I read lots of commentaries and historical religious books. Actually, I bought Albert Barn's commentary at the recommendation of Mr. Camping.

Now, I realize that some are working overtime to drum-up this idea that FR listeners are part of a cult. But after a while, people are going to look for the fruit. They will soon begin to wonder about those who are doing the reviling. How can these things be done in the name of Jesus Christ?

Lu 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake.


PS: Someone mentioned that I was a Family Radio teacher. Not true. For the record, I’m just an overseas listener with no connections to FR.


Fear God and give glory to Him,
Darrell

Sean said...

"An evil is in the professed camp of the Lord, so gross in its impudence, that the most shortsighted can hardly fail to notice it during the past few years. It has developed at an abnormal rate, even for evil. It has worked like leaven until the whole lump ferments. The devil has seldom done a cleverer thing than hinting to the church that part of their mission is to provide entertainment for the people, with
a view to winning them."

-C. H. Spurgeon (1834-1892)

"The "god" of this twentieth century no more resembles the Supreme Sovereign of Holy Writ than does the dim flickering of a candle the glory of the mid-day sun. The god who is now talked about in the average pulpit, spoken of in the ordinary Sunday School, mentioned in most of the religious literature of the day, and preached in most of the so-called Bible conferences is a figment of human imagination, an invention of over-emotional sentimentality."

-Arthur W. Pink (1886-1952)

"We are now in that time of history when the church age has come to an end. Consequently, God has commanded each and every believer to leave his local church and continue to serve God as His ambassador outside of the church and congregation. This is the action required by God for any and all who truly tremble before the Word of God."

-Harold Camping

LAMBSFURY said...

"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and HE SHALL BE TORMENTED with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And THE SMOKE of THEIR TORMENT ascendeth up FOR EVER AND EVER: and they have NO REST day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." Revelation 14:10-11

The torment as defined in verse 10 is further mentioned in verse 11 as far as duration. The torment as defined in verse 10 is eternal as verse 11 states. The unsaved have "no rest" from this torment, as the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever.

Revelation 14:11 is a quote from Isaiah 34:10

"It shall not be quenched night nor day; THE SMOKE thereof shall go up FOR EVER: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever." Isaiah 34:10

Just as Isaiah 34:10 is translated as "for ever" in the Hebrew, is why the same truth is translated in the Greek in Revelation 14:11.

In order to make eternal torment "go away" Camping ALTERS Revelation 14:11, and makes this say "to" ever, indicating the torment ceases once eternity begins.

Camping also says that the torment of Revelation 14:10-11, that refers to all the unsaved, only applies to the enemies of Camping's teachings...

Which is absurd.

It is strange that Camping, who knows nothing about Greek, claims he has the "authority" to alter verses....and at the same time he claims "the Bible does not teach eternal torment."

Meaning, in order to make Camping's annihilation god survive, he needs to "alter" verses as he sees fit....all in the name of progressive revelation.

When we read commentaries of people who actually know Greek:

"Here, the fact of ETENRAL TORMENT is PLAINLY STATED; forever and ever means "forever and ever." If the only consequences for sin are in this life, or if the only penalty for sin is temporary, then clever sinners have won out over God. Walvoord says of the phrase forever and ever: "Literally 'INTO the ages of ages,' THE STRONGEST EXPRESSION OF ETERNITY OF WHICH THE GREEK IS CAPABLE"  David Guzik's Commentary

LAMBSFURY said...

"After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death TILL HE COME." I Corinthians 11:25-26

While churches are going more apostate, and have been going apostate, and one should never attend an apostate church, there is no statement that says the church age ENDED on MAY 21, 1988.

The Bible is clear that we are to show the Lord's death TILL HE COME, that is, until the LAST DAY.

The church age continues TILL THE LAST DAY.

The Campingites like this idea of "multiple invisible returns of Christ" and claim that Christ came on May 21, 1988

Wow....what a great unsealing!

The fact is, Christ's COMING, is His SECOND coming - Hebrews 9:28, and His Second Coming IS THE LAST DAY - I Thess 4:16, and He comes in LIKE MANNER which He ascended - Acts 1:11, and EVERY EYE will see Him - Revelation 1:7

This idea that Christ "came invisibly in 1988" is just like the apostate doctrines of the Watchtower who also claim invisible returns of Christ in 1914, and many other years.

Ask any Campingite to show one verse that Christ "Christ came in 1988 and ended the church age" and they will be deafening silent!!!

Because no such verse exists, and they only can quote Camping's books.

Campingism is an extension of the Watchtower.

A false cult on their way to hell.

APRIL said...

Darrell,

I often hear Mr. Camping recommending his books as required reading - in addition to the Bible - to everyone who asks him where May 21, 2011 is found in the Bible. He assures them that the date is in the Bible, but his books are "must reading" if one wants to find it. If you don't think that this boils down to recommending only the Bible plus his publications, then I don't know what to say.

As for calling you an "FR teacher", that is precisely how I see you. You host and maintain a "teaching" group strictly for those who support Family Radio and Mr. Camping. As the moderator, you authorize certain members to "teach" (such as frequent commentator Lambsfury). You set the requirements for the teachers of your group and everybody knows they can only teach either recycled Camping studies or studies to enhance his timeline. You may not be on Family Radio's payroll, but to say that you are not an FR teacher is like saying FR is not a church.

You have a similar problem with being labeled a "Campingite" but I honestly can't think of a better name for you. I, myself, am a former Campingite as well as a former Lutheran. You obviously have a very high regard for Mr. Camping, so I really don't see the problem. "Campingite" is just an easier way to say "Family Radio supporter" or "Harold Camping supporter". Why can't you own up to what you are?

How you can say that you are "just an overseas listenter with no connections to FR" is beyond my comprehension.

P.S., I remembered that I have also been called a "spiritual midget" - which made me laugh. I appreciate a well-crafted label, even when I'm being reviled. Life is short, Darrell (for you 21 months and for me "quickly"), so let's not be so sensitive about what others call us in the short time we have left. God knows our hearts and that's all that matters.

LAMBSFURY said...

The Campingites think II Peter 3 refers to "date setting." It has nothing to do with date-setting.

In II Peter 3:8, the following verse sets up what is in view..

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a THOUSAND YEARS, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is NOT SLACK(Strong 1019) concerning his promise, as some men count SLACKNESS; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE"  II Peter 3:8-9

One day is with the Lord as a thousand years.  A quote from Psalm 90:4

"For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night."  Psalm 90:4

God is outside of time.....so while it may appear from our vantagepoint that God is SLACKING concerning His promise, the reason why it appears that God is SLACKING is because God is "longsuffering" to the elect, and that ALL come to repentence....meaning all of God's elect.  That is, God must save who has He to save.

The word "slack" in II Peter 3:9 is Strong 1019 and is used one other time in the Bible, in I Timothy 3:15

"But if I TARRY LONG(Strong 1019), that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."  I Timothy 3:15

So, when God says be not ignorant of a thousands years being as one day, combining the following verse with the verse Peter is quoting from in the Psalms, we see that this has NOTHING to do with date setting, but illustrating that God is outside of time, and outside of our thinking when it comes to time.

From out human finite vantagepoint, God appears to be "slacking."  He appears to be "tarrying." However, with eternal God, one day is as a thousand years and a thousands years as a day. God is outside of time, and outside of our human vantagepoint of measuring time.

We think that God is slacking.  God's ways are outside our ways.

When we look at Psalm 90, where this is quoted from, we see the difference of God's ways of understanding time and our ways:

"For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night."  Psalm 90:4

God is outside of time, He is eternal.

Mankind is finite:

"The days of our years are THREESCORE years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away. Who knoweth the power of thine anger? even according to thy fear, so is thy wrath. So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom."  Psalm 90:10-12

So, here is the difference.  Our days are 70 years or 80 years, and we are finite.  God is eternal.  A day is a thousands years and a thousand years a day.  He is outside of time.

Jesus further indicates that God's thinking is outside of our thinking when it comes to the time of the end:

"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as YE THINK NOT the Son of man cometh"  Matthew 24:44

"Watch ye therefore: for ye KNOW NOT when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning"  Mark 13:35

In talking to His disciples in Matthew 24:44, as this also applies to all, Jesus indicates that He will come in an hour YE THINK NOT.  Because God's thinking is outside our thinking.

The date setters think they have it all figured out.  Their math, their calculations, their projections, their charts and timelines. 

They think they know God's thoughts.

As much as you may "think" Christ may come on a specific date, that does not mean when "you think" it will happen, is when God plans it to happen.

That is why all date setters are false and Christ will come upon them as a thief in the night.

Hi said...

"Holy" is of heaven, and therefore God's Holy Bible, by definition, cannot be interpreted as grammatical/historical only, or even primarily per se.

John 4:24
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."


Mr. Camping and many other caring souls understand this and in so doing, point to the richness and to the warnings revealed "in spirit and in truth" of God's Holy Bible -- the full council of God's Truth to the world.

May God bless the hearing and reading of His Holy Word in Christ Jesus name.

LAMBSFURY said...

"When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt NOT be afraid of him." Deuteronomy 18:22
   
When 1994 came and went, the survival of the "organization" was threatened.

Camping was visibly upset when his 1994 date settings came and went. Shortly after, Camping had open heart surgery and while still in the hospital, he announced his "new date" in the following year.

However, this time, he started to become interested in "astrology" to predict the end.

Camping announced that he figured out the patterns and cycles of stars, and that he concluded based on his satanic astrology that he can predict the end in 1995

Once his March 1995 date passed, Camping gave more more shot and announced that Christmas of 1995 was the end......with no Biblical support.

Another progressive revelation failure.

The fact that Camping started to look to "astrology" to predict the end in 1995, shows he is totally satanic.

"Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the ASTROLOGERS, the STARGAZERS, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee. Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall NOT DELIVER THEMSELVES FROM THE POWER OF THE FLAME: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it." Isaiah 47:13-14

Astrologers such as Camping will not deliver themselves from the power of the flame.

However, as Camping was embarrrassed over so many date failures, he need to do something to protect the survival of "the organization."

So, he fabricated this "end of the church age doctrine" that God is not saving in the churches in order to focus on Family Radio as the one divine organization on earth.

So, very conveniently when his 1994 dates failed, it really didn't according to Camping....it was the latter rain, where FR is the "appointed one" to bring salvation to the world. Just as the Watchtower announced a "latter rain" in 1914, once their date settings failed.

Interestingly, the Watchtower also predicted the end in 1994....

So, don't give your money to the churches Camping says, the church age is over....give it to Family Radio.

What a smart business decision to protect the "survival" of the "organization."

Hi said...

LAMBSFURY...

You are railing as Cain railed against Abel but that will not help you see or come to truth.

APRIL said...

Wow. I have been overlooking the word "slack" in 2nd Peter 3:8, but now I see how it connects perfectly to the two time comparisons in verse 8.

Strong's 1021 is also related to "slack" (#1091) and found here:

Lu 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow <1021> of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Jas 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow <1021> to speak, slow <1021> to wrath:

I never thought I'd ever say these words, but Lambsfury explained that really well. I hope Darrell reads it and shares it with his group. It's extremely hard to let go of false ideas once they take hold, but when we do, it's amazing to see how much simpler the truth is.

LAMBSFURY said...

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left."  Matthew 25:31-33

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall GIVE ACCOUNT thereof in THE DAY OF JUDGMENT."  Matthew 12:36

But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all STAND before THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall GIVE ACCOUNT OF HIMSELF TO GOD."  Romans 14:10-12

"For we must ALL APPEAR before THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. KNOWING therefore the TERROR OF THE LORD, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences."  II Corinthians 5:10-11

One of the great deceptions of the religion of Campingism, is that they "deny" a final Judgment Day when all stand before Christ, the sheep on the right hand and the goats on the left.....as all "give account of himself to God."

They need to deny this because they must hold to their "dead is dead" delusion.

Rotten bones and dissolved ashes don't "give account of himself to God."  Rotten bones and ashes don't bow before Christ and confess that He is Lord.

In II Corinthians 5:10-11, God warns how all will appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ, and because of this truth, we KNOW the TERROR of the LORD.

The TERROR of the LORD, was KNOWN already thousands of years ago.  Progressive revelation after the Bible was completed is FALSE. The TERROR of the LORD is that every human being will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ to give account of himself to God.  For those still in their sins, unsaved, they will have to answer for their sins, without the penalty being paid.

This will be nothing but TERROR for the unsaved.

Because of this TERROR, "we persuade men." 

Meaning, we persuade men to look to Christ to save them from that terror.

The Campingism cult is so apostate, they actually want you to think that the TERROR of the LORD that is KNOWN, is just a "terror on one's bones."

That is it not "people" that come under judgment, but the "chemical remains of people."

So, the organic remains of people, is what comes under this TERROR.

This is dumbest doctrine that one can think of, and so apostate, only those unsaved could believe such heresy.

The TERROR of the LORD will come upon EVERY unsaved person who has ever lived, as all stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ.

"Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth."  Psalm 96:13

"He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and VEX THEM in his sore displeasure."  Psalm 2:4-5

The false religion of Campingism perverts the Words of God

A WITNESS FOR CHRIST, formerly ASK DR PAISLEY said...

WILL SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY 1440AM RADIO DROPPED THE DEBATE?THEN EXPLAIN THIS STATEMENT OF AN UPDATE ....
**UPDATE: Due to the overwhelming response to this two-day radio/Internet debate please help us take the burden off of WNYG's servers by listening to the program on the Dividing Line link
available at www.aomin.org!

Since when do large numbers translate to do the program somewhere else?
I always thought that the larger
the audience the better the ratings
better for the advertisers etc.
What is really going on?
STAY TUNED FOR MORE ON THIS MATTER!

darrell said...

April,

I'm sorry to say but I don't respond to emails from people who are simply out to brawl with others. The moderator of this blog has also inferred that he does not want participants to engage in name calling ( I assume this applies to being called a Campingnite). I think most Christians understand that we must be gentle towards all men and not come across with a judgmental/accusatory attitude.

Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.


Fear God and give glory to Him,
Darrell

James Swan said...

WILL SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY 1440AM RADIO DROPPED THE DEBATE?THEN EXPLAIN THIS STATEMENT OF AN UPDATE ....

The debate has not been "dropped". Due to the overwhelming amount of people who will be using the live stream audio from 1440, there is a good chance the server providing the Internet live stream will crash.

aomin.org is making the audio stream from 1440 available to listeners as well, in the hope to keep the live stream from crashing.

APRIL said...

Darrell,

I promise to never say the word Campingite after May 21, 2011, because whatever happens on that date, only the most hopelessly lost ones will still be worthy of the name.

I realize that FR teachers and supporters try to accuse all those who don't accept the Camping date prediction as being mockers. FYI, my earnest hope is that the Lord will return before we even have a chance to hear the great debate of '09.

Lynn said...

The Word of God taught me the same thing that Harold is teaching and because of what I saw it was a week before Easter Sunday in 1988 that I came out of the church (MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS) which I have suspected since I was a 10 year old kid. The Word of God teaches that the first 7 churches in Revelation 2&3 we so far gone already, how could they be so glorious in our modern day? Just take a peek at Jeremiah 23. In 1987 is when I found that 2 Peter 3:8 & Genesis 7:4 was showing that we have 7000 years from the flood until the end of the world. This was enough to scare me to death and I no longer wanted the Truth and ran for the next 17 years after getting out of the church, thinking that either I've lost my mind in seeing these very plain things in the Bible that not one person was teaching, or this is Truth and right now, I just don't want the world to end, I want my own life and the life of my family to go on in this world. In 2005 I ran across Family radio's show Open Forum, and this is when the Lord taught me that I too cast the Truth to the ground, when I learned that there was one person teaching the very thing that I learned too from the Word of God alone when I started to study the Word of God and waited to see what I would find. I had nothing to do with my own salvation just like all of His elect. I searched the scriptures on my own for 4 years (1985-1989)followed the command to come out of her my people in 1988 and did not want to have anything to do with any of this, but Glory to God that He is Faithful, and when I heard the Word of Truth being taught on Open Forum about the "end of the church age" and the end of the world in 2011, it was like an earthquake under my feet and knocked me to the ground where I knew that I was nothing but dust. All Glory to God alone. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.
Sanctify them through Thy Truth;
Thy Word is Truth. John 17:17

A WITNESS FOR CHRIST, formerly ASK DR PAISLEY said...

Now Mr. Swan states
The debate has not been "dropped". Due to the overwhelming amount of people who will be using the live stream audio from 1440, there is a good chance the server providing the Internet live stream will crash.

Now this raises a few more questions...just how does Mr.Swan know just how many will in fact "tune in"
have tickets been sold ? are the listeners of "WHITE's radio program....all 7
tuning in...I've checked out his show he gets no calls to speak of..perhaps he is a one man show and I guess that's ok.. Then my final question would be since both the host of the debate and
Mr. White own web stores where coffee cups and t-shirts and the like are sold is it their hope that this debate will bring....
BUS LOADS OF NEW POTENTIAL
BUYERS ??? Which in turn brings the truth of the purpose of the debate to
MERCANDISING THE GOSPEL...???
I AWAIT ANY AND ALL REPLIES.

Ralph

A WITNESS FOR CHRIST, formerly ASK DR PAISLEY said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
LAMBSFURY said...

"And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits; And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse: But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats. And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be MORE TOLERABLE for Sodom and Gomorrha in THE DAY OF JUDGMENT, than for THAT CITY. And they went out, and preached that men should repent." Mark 6:7-12

One of the false doctrines of Family Radio is that they think that the warnings of the Bible, only apply to the era of Harold Camping.

This of course is false.

In Mark 6:7-12, Jesus sends His disciples out "2 by 2." They went to the cities of Israel and preached the gospel and preached that men should repent.

As they went out 2 by 2, and entered the homes of those in Israel, Jesus warned that "whosoever" shall not receive you, nor hear you, that it will more "more tolerable" for Sodom and Gomorrha in the Day of Judgment, than for that city.
To those cities in Israel that Jesus' disciples preached, Jesus is looking ahead to the "Day of Judgment" for these people. Meaning, the Last Day.

We see the same warning in Matthew 11:

"Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: Woe unto thee, Cho-ra'-zin! woe unto thee, Beth-sa'-i-da! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Si'-don, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Si'-don at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Ca-per'-na-um, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee." Matthew 11:20-24

Notice the same warning. Jesus "upraided" the cities where his mighty works were done and they "repented not." If Sodom saw the mighty works "it would of remained until this day." Jesus is literally referring to the city of Sodom.

So, Jesus condemned the cities of Capernaum, Bethsaida and Chorazin because in these cities they heard the gospel and repented not. It will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha than for these cities in the "Day of Judgment."

So, the timing of Jesus' warning's is the last day and the Day of Judgment.

For the past 2000 years, the gospel has been going forth to cities all over the world. The same warning applies today as it did 2000 years ago:

Any person, no matter when they lived, who heard the gospel and remains unsaved, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the "Day of Judgment" than for them.

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the Day of Judgment." Matthew 12:36

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished" II Peter 2:9

The unsaved will be reserved alive, and they will "give account" of "every idle word" at the "Day of Judgment."

It will be more tolerable for Sodom than for those who heard the gospel and repented not.

Dead is not dead

Annihilation is false

A WITNESS FOR CHRIST, formerly ASK DR PAISLEY said...

These are the pictures of the college Mr wHITE ATTENDED TO EARN HIS DEGREE.........I think all should decide for themselves....

A photographic tour of Columbia Evangelical Seminary . . found here: http://www.shields-research.org/Novak/CES/ces.htm


Columbia Evangelical Seminary:
The Photographic Tour

Photo of the Henry Building, home to Columbia Evangelical Seminary. Note the tree and park bench for perspective. There is no campus. This is it.

A slightly different angle.

The Henry Building directory. Note that Columbia Evangelical Seminary is still listed as Faraston Theological seminary.

Finally, the front door to the Seminary. The sign reads, "There is no cash in this office. This is the administrative office of a school and we do not sell products nor deal with purchases or sales." Behind that door lies James White's Masters Thesis.

The Columbia Evangelical Seminary consists of two offices: that of Rick Walston and that of his receptionist, Walston's sister. The operation consists of two PCs, one shredder, one copy machine and numerous file cabinets. I counted some fifteen theses and dissertations on the shelf.

Back to Does James White Have a Genuine Doctorate?

watchman_2011 said...

Here's the thing about theological schools/seminaries: they teach things that are not consistent with the Bible. So if anyone graduates from these "schools", there really isn't much to boast about, including adding "Dr." next to your name. Remember, boasting is a sin. Do you really think God cares about someone having a "doctorate" degree? The people of Nineveh didn't have much or any Biblical knowledge, yet it was still God's plan to save them. The thief at the cross most likely didn't have Biblical knowledge, yet God saved him.

Besides, a big part of what they teach at these seminaries and other schools is HOW TO BUILD YOUR CHURCH...just like how you'd build your own business. I know this because the brother of a friend of mine confirmed this. It's all about the money people. I've seen it in several churches. They do offerings for "the church building funds". They attract potential members by doing performances that look so heavenly. They have a couple big screens showing the performers, and in between, they show daycare and real estate ads. Believe me, I was a big part of this. It's all a trick, headed by Satan.

Look at this "Dr" White's blog page...all sorts of advertisements. It's all about monetizing. I wonder if they teach Online Advertisement 101 in theology schools/seminaries?

If "Dr" White really wants to be obedient to God, he wouldn't do all this non-sense. It's all vanity...read the entire book of Ecclesiastes.

LAMBSFURY said...

"Then shall HE SAY also unto THEM on THE LEFT HAND, DEPART FROM ME, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels" Matthew 25:41

"Then shall they also ANSWER HIM, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?" Matthew 25:44

"Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall GO AWAY into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Matthew 25:45-46

The Campingites claim that God's punishment at Judgment Day is "5 months." However, Jesus clearly tells all those on the LEFT hand that they are cast into EVERLASTING fire and EVERLASTING punishment.

Not only are those on the left hand clearly conscious, speaking to Jesus, they are condemned to EVERLASTING fire.

All those on the left hand = All the unsaved who ever lived

All those on the right hand = All the elect in history

"Then shall HE SAY also unto THEM on THE LEFT HAND, DEPART FROM ME, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels" Matthew 25:41

The false cult of Campingism has rewritten the Word of God via their satanic progressive revelations and Camping's sorcery.

Jesus says DEPART FROM ME into EVERLASTING FIRE, not some temporary pugatory that the apostate Campingites claim...

A WITNESS FOR CHRIST, formerly ASK DR PAISLEY said...

Colossians 3:9-10:
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:"

MORE ON JAMES WHITE'S "DOCTORATE" degree can be found here:

The Christian Sentinel
By William Alnor / August 2004 issue
Link: http://cultlink.com/sentinel/whiteq.htm
Excerpt:
“Bill Alnor's Questions for Apologist Author James White Concerning his "Doctoral Degrees"

(James White did not answer these questions as of August 10, 2004. But he did send Bill Alnor a polite note. However, he did not give permission to post it.)”

Follow the link to read the 18 questions Mr. Wm. Alnor posed to Mr. James White

See also:

Bill Alnor's Questions for Apologist Author James White Concerning his "Doctoral Degrees"
A Scourge of Suspect Credentials and Phony Degrees is Sweeping through the Church.
Part One
Link: http://cultlink.com/news/aug_2004_sentinel_eupdate.htm

Excerpt:
“ On July 14 in a Southwest Radio Church broadcast dealing with apostasy in the church, Dr. Larry Spargimino exposed some of the facts about prominent apologist and author James White of Arizona. The show stated that White’s degree is from an "unaccredited correspondence school" -- the Columbia Evangelical Seminary that has "no library," "no curriculum committee," "no bookstore," and has "no course review procedures." The broadcast claimed that many of those holding phony degrees do so for "purely mercenary motivations." "Fake degrees are a betrayal of the public's trust.... These degrees aren't worth the paper they are printed on. You don't want someone with a fake degree working in Homeland security, teaching your children and designing your bridges." To listen to the broadcast go to http://www.swrc.com/broadcasts/2004/july.htm, click on July 14 and go to the very end of the broadcast.

It is interesting to note that while White’s website (http://www.aomin.org) repeatedly lists his title as "Dr." James White (as he also identifies himself on his radio broadcast), White's evangelical publisher refuses to list him as "Dr." on one of his recent books. White has addressed this issue on his web site, defending his credentials and has privately corresponded with Bill Alnor about it some time ago. However, Alnor found his explanations to be woefully inadequate. Nevertheless, he is now publicly giving White a chance to respond, and he will reproduce White's answers in a future E-update without editing his response as long as White answers all the questions”

& Part Two here:

A Look at the Scandal of Granting Honorary Degrees in the Church /Par
The Christian Sentinel
Link: http://cultlink.com/news/honorary.htm
By William Alnor/ (posted August 11, 2004)
Excerpt:

“A second problem within the church is the astonishing number of people who have been given "honorary" doctoral degrees, who then turn around and call themselves "doctor," thus quietly implying they have earned degrees. This is deceptive and goes against academic protocol. In reality, although many institutions of higher learning give honorary doctorates, the secularists -- those outside Christianity receiving them know better than to take them seriously. Thus they don't refer to themselves as "doctor" at all, since it would be a joke to do so.”

Ralph

1 John 2:21:
"I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that NO LIE IS OF THE TRUTH."

Remember . . lying is the hallmark of the devil! (John 8:44)

Janice said...

In general, so-called "church leaders" even unto this day cannot stand to have their false power, false authority, false control, prestige and free money stripped from them, and will live until they die, defending their delusions.

God knows what He is doing; and for some people, it might take a lifetime of deception to finally appreciate the truth.

Money, fear, and power. It's all about money, fear, and power. Take away the money, fear, and power, and much of Christendom will come crashing down. It is a damnable thing what many "teachers" are doing to well-meaning people who think they are following Jesus. And what is worse, many of these sincere and well-meaning people often become just like their "teachers." They will defend evil and "church doctrine" with every ounce of their being. It is sad. Thank GOD there are some who are being told the Truth!

Jugulum said...

Janice,

So, let me make sure I understand you clearly.

The Bible did establish churches with leaders, originally. And if sincere and well-meaning Christians aspired to become leaders in the church, it could be for right reasons from a servant's heart. They could be desiring a "noble task", as Paul put it.

But now, all teachers and leaders in churches are wolves, and it's all about fear and money and power. Now, if someone desires to become a leader in the church, it's only because they're power hungry.

In the past, when God was still in the churches, people could defend the necessity of church from right reasons, out of love and concern for the body of Christ. But now, when people defend the necessity of church, it's only because they have delusional love of control.

Is that it?

Anthony said...

The brief breaks from WNYG sound very worldly...very typical with what's going on in the churches today.

Brogonni said...

I can't believe Mr. Camping is waisting his time on this nerd, James White

Brogonni said...

Yah, Jame White, what about the Church at Jesus time, for 4 thousand years they had the bible and still they did not know that Jesus is the Christ and GOD.

Brogonni said...

Yah, what about that Christ is the lam slain before that foundation Mr. White

Brogonni said...

White talks as typical Catholic Priests, I have 6 Catholic Priests and they sound the same as White

Jugulum said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Brogonni said...

Mr. White is upset because Mr. Camping is taking away his only income $$$$$$$. the church (building)

Jugulum said...

"I can't believe Mr. Camping is waisting his time on this nerd, James White"

Be careful, Brogonni. I'm sure that watchman_2011 is going to come back to tell you that you're a mocker and slanderer in the last days.


"Yah, Jame White, what about the Church at Jesus time, for 4 thousand years they had the bible and still they did not know that Jesus is the Christ and GOD."

The people of God got new Scripture to reveal that new information, right?

Brogonni said...

Mr. White Blablablabla

Brogonni said...

Yah Mr. White you saw people change, change what the underwear's.

Brogonni said...

My wish is for Mr. Camping will not spend any more time on this nerd,

Hi said...

From this broadcast, we are reminded of Romans 10:17 and 2 Timothy 3:16,17; etc.

John 17:17...trust only God (Christ/God's word/obedience....).

Mr. Camping, as heard in the broadcast, is directing people only to the Bible and to what the Bible itself is proclaiming.

May God bless the reading and hearing of God's Holy word in Jesus name.

watchman_2011 said...

OK, we all (including myself) have been acting like the pharisee criticizing the publican in his prayer. My response to you Jugulum is it goes both ways...with the name calling (Campingite and nerd) and and mozart's wishes to win the popularity contest.

In this debate though, it's so obvious "Dr" White is out to attack Mr. Camping personally.

The external church has lost it's first love - God.

LAMBSFURY said...

The Camping cult loves to use the phrase "don't believe me, believe the Bible."

However, know that they cannot now or ever prove these statements from the Bible.

1. The Church age ended May 21, 1988. No verse states this

2. A Latter Rain began Sept 1994. No verse states this.

3. God is not saving anymore in the churches, but is saving by the ministry of Family Radio. No verse states that.

4. Family Radio is the special appointed divine organization where God comes down to man. No verse states that.

5. Progressive revelation is given to Camping and his slaves. No verse states that.

6. May 21, 2011 is the Last Day. No verse states that.

7. 1988 is when all verses of not knowing the day and hour becomes "negated." No verse states that.

Despite the Campingites claim of "just use the Bible," just know that they cannot now nor ever find a verse that states the 7 points above.

A WITNESS FOR CHRIST, formerly ASK DR PAISLEY said...

Today we re-heard the classic story of the tortoise and the hare.

The amateurish technical presentation
was an added bonus .

If I were an advertiser on this program I would ask for a refund .

It is good to know that those who went to "FOOLA MA GOOLA" college
have learned out to see inside someones heart and know that they are in fact a saved person.

Tune in tomorrow same time same station for part 2 of this tortoise and hare story,I will leave to each of you to decide who is playing each part.Till tomorrow
good night.

ps will the host be as impartial in tomorrows show?

Ralph

watchman_2011 said...

Thank you for calling Mr. Camping's teachings as a cult. Although I don't believe the teachings of pastors and these "Dr"s, I don't go around labeling them as a cult. I just stay away from them and leave it to God. You do know that God really talks about pastors in many places in the Bible about being unfaithful and corrupt, right?

Anyway, to answer your questions, there are no direct verses that clearly state whatever's in view. There are many verses in the Bible that give enough time information that can be put together perfectly. God wrote the Bible in a way that is not easy to understand. But the information is there. It's just like asking "What year did the Flood occur?" To know find out, you'd have to continue searching the Scriptures (in this case, you'd read Genesis chapters 5 and 11).

You also asked where in the Bible does it say "May 21, 2011" as the date of the Rapture? The answer is, again, you have to study about it. Try reading http://may-21-2011-part1.blogspot.com, http://may-21-2011-part2.blogspot.com, and http://may-21-2011-part3.blogspot.com. These articles are rich in Scriptures.

By the way, I really sense your anger toward Mr. Camping. If you really want to learn more about his teachings, I ask that you calm down a bit and perhaps try to have an open mind if you hadn't yet done so. Pray to God for wisdom.

I continue to pray for you and those in the same situation.

watchman_2011 said...

By the way, here's the thing nobody even thinks about: God commands His true believers to "watch" for His return so He doesn't "come as a thief in the night". What this commandment requires is there has to be an actual time (date) of His return. Knowing the date is watching. And watching (which is reading the Bible) is obeying God. Are there any other pastors and "Bible teachers" out there searching for His return?

rfoner said...

The now defunked churches has yet to understand the meaning of Our Lord and Savior's words when he said:

Therefore speak I to them in parables; because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear , and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall shall not perceive;

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them" Matthew 13:13-15

Unless the Great God have mercy on them, all that can be said to them is WOE UNTO THEM!!!

PuritanCalvinist said...

A Witness,

What does any of this have to do with what Dr. White actually *said?* The fact of the matter is that Dr. White has been aware of these alligations for a long time, and has already written against those who make these claims:

http://vintage.aomin.org/Novak1.html

If I were Dr. White I would not bother with these alligations beyond this article either. They are just merely poisoning the well, to keep people from listening to him on the basis of something that has nothing to do with his actual work. Never mind the fact that his books have been endorsed by D.A. Carson, Gleason Archer, Daniel B. Wallace, John MacAurthur, R.C. Sproul Jr., Kenneth Gentry, Normon Geisler, etc, people from all kinds of different theological perspectives. If you actually want to say that he is not qualified, then show it from his work. There are many fine Christian schools that are unaccredited, and are better than some schools that are accredited! The real key is the product they produce. Until you are willing to address the actual product, this will be nothing more than poisoning the well.

LAMBSFURY said...

You said:

"You also asked where in the Bible does it say "May 21, 2011" as the date of the Rapture? The answer is, again, you have to study about it"

Sorry, your blogs are meaningless. Since you can't quote a verse, you "divert" to your blogs.

Since much of the info regarding May 21 came from me 2 years ago, that I shared with Camping personally(at that time I was a false date setter)I know all about May 21. First thing is that May 21, 2011 is NOT exactly 7000 years to the "day" of the flood. The flood occured on the 17th day of the second month "of Noah's life." That day is not revealed in the Bible. We don't know the day Noah was born.

Second, there is no direct statement that says that Christ will come after 7,000 years of the flood.

Third, time paths of 722,500 days which also came from me some time ago, also are meaningless. You can find all sorts of numbers with breakdowns. 722,400 days breaks down to 43x7x5x5x4x4x3x2...that does not mean now that this date means something.

Date setting is like what happened in the garden. You are seeking the fruit God commanded not to eat - Matthew 24:36, Acts 1:7

And who comes along to snare you? Satan. As he snares you to violate Rev 22:18

A WITNESS FOR CHRIST, formerly ASK DR PAISLEY said...

Re: JamesWhite
Sunday, July 26, 2009 11:16 PM
From: "ralph nadolny"
To: bill@cultlink.com
Dear Mr. Alnor,

Can you please advise if you ever received answers to questions you posed to "Dr." James White in 2004 regarding his credentials?

I refer specifically to this post Bill Alnor's Questions for Apologist Author James White Concerning his "Doctoral Degrees" at your website here: http://cultlink.com/sentinel/whiteq.htm

Your response would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks for your anticipated consideration in answering my inquiry.

Regards,

June A. Nadolny
--------------------
From: William Alnor
Subject: Re: JamesWhite
To: "ralph nadolny"
Date: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 2:22 PM

I did not receive an "official" for the record response from James White
-------------------
From: ralphnadolny
Subject: Re: JamesWhite
To: "William Alnor"
Date: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 9:30 PM

Dear Mr. Alnor:

I thank you for responding to my e-mail but I must confess I find the reply you gave me to be most disturbing. Am I to understand that the answer you received from James White which you characterize as "not official" was confided alone to you but you cannot disclose it to anyone or make it public?

Don't you think the Christian community at large deserves a straightforward answer to a question you raised in a public forum regarding the credentials of Mr. James White, a somewhat prominent figure in Christian circles? Don't you think this is vital and essential knowledge for individual Christians to have in order to assess and evaluate the integrity and trustworthiness of the man and his ministry? Does this not go to accountability?

I am by God's grace a Christian.
Is not the Christian exhorted to "let your yea be yea, and your nay, nay"? (James 5:12)
As children of light, are we not called to walk in His Truth? Those who are in positions of authority and leadership, i.e., pastors, teachers, elders, deacons are to be "examples to the flock" (1 Pet. 5:1-3), and as such, must be especially vigilant and diligent that they "abstain from all appearance of evil" (1 Thess. 5:22) and / or impropriety, that no reproach and dishonour be brought upon Christ, His Name, His Church, His Cause & His Gospel.

I'm sure you would agree that as lying is the very hallmark of the devil (John 8:44) and not the child of God, to misrepresent oneself in an effort to advance and/or promote oneself would be totally inconsistent with the character of the "new man." (II Cor. 5:17)

So, Mr. Alnor I would once again prevail upon you to provide the Christian community with forthright, unambiguous, transperant answers to the questions you posed sometime ago with respect to the credentials of Mr. James White.
1 John 2:21b:
"I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth."
Col. 3:9-10:
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:"
Mr. Alnor, I truly believe that those who knowingly withhold information are not guiltless but by their silence, are found to be complicit in these matters by allowing the deception to be carried along. I await your response.

Respectfully,

June A. Nadolny
--------------------
Re: JamesWhite
Tuesday, July 28, 2009 5:42 PM
From:"William Alnor"
To: ralphnadolny

He has chosen not to allow me to publish his new comments. But he has no explanations that are adequate to answer my questions.

Since I am struggling with a grave illness I am not going to press it further.

- Bill Alnor

watchman_2011 said...

Lambsfury - you obviously didn't read the break down in my blogs because in them, there are numerous verses. I don't put verses here as it makes this page load longer. Not sure why you didn't read them but I'll leave that to you.

As for violating Rev. 22:18, not sure how you can accuse anyone who uses Bible verses (even though I'm not the one who originally came up with this study). It's a product of learning from the Bible. Are you also saying that church doctrines, which are man-made interpretations, a violation of Rev. 22:18?

Also, let me ask you this: Are you carefully watching for Christ's return? If so, are you close to coming up with a date? And if so, I'd like for you to share with me.

rfoner said...

Men like to gather in their company other men who are proclaiming the same things that they are proclaiming. For some reason the old adage “misery loves company” seems to ring all so true; but to what avail??? What says the scriptures???

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. (2 Tim 4:3-5 KJV)

When Daniel saw the vision, who of the men that was with him saw it??? We read:

7 And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.
8 Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.
9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground. (Dan 10:7-9 KJV)

Does a cloud of companions who surrounds one mean that righteousness is on his side???

17 I sat not in the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced; I sat alone because of thy hand: for thou hast filled me with indignation. (Jer 15:17 KJV)

Then we read of an occurrence on that faithful day on Mt. Carmel:

19 Now therefore send, and gather to me all Israel unto Mount Carmel, and the prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty, and the prophets of the groves four hundred, which eat at Jezebel's table.
20 So Ahab sent unto all the children of Israel, and gathered the prophets together unto Mount Carmel.
21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.
22 Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men. (1 Kings 18:19-22 KJV)

The point is that just because the whole house is corrupt does not mean that the Most High God have not saved one for himself. Those who love to have the testimony and company of so-called great men should take heed that danger lurks in the crowds:

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. (1 Cor 1:26-29 KJV)

Nor should we forget:

14 For many are called, but few are chosen. (Matt 22:14 KJV)

Look around the world; are there many who call themselves followers of Christ but ignore what Christ has said??? I say watch out and continue to follow what God has told us in his word, even if we must stand alone; for the Lord has said:

31 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall do this. (2 Kings 19:31 KJV)

Again:
9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah. (Isaiah 1:9 KJV)

And finally, but not by far the last; we read:

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (Romans 11:5 KJV)

Gary McNees said...

If Camping had lived in the Old Testament, he would have been stoned. This is PROVED by his book, 1984, in which he in claimed to speak for God and nothing he has said for years has come to pass. Those of you who follow him are certainly deluded.

LAMBSFURY said...

You said:

"As for violating Rev. 22:18, not sure how you can accuse anyone who uses Bible verses"

That is exactly what you are doing...

Because the Bible says:

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father ONLY"  Matthew 24:36

"Watch therefore: for ye know NOT what hour your Lord doth come."  Matthew 24:42

"Therefore be ye also READY for in such an hour as ye think NOT the Son of man cometh."  Matthew 24:44

"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."  Matthew 25:13

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father"  Mark 13:32

"Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know NOT when the time is."  Mark 13:33

"Watch ye therefore: for ye know NOT when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."  Mark 13:35-37

"Be ye therefore READY also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when YE THINK NOT."  Luke 12:40

"And he said unto them, It is NOT FOR YOU TO KNOW the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."  Acts 1:7

The reason Jesus says the same truth over and over is to teach us not to engage in date settings..

While we can "know" that the end is "near" and "at the doors" - Matthew 24:33, we "cannot know" the day and hour.

So, Jesus is clear on telling us what we CAN know and what we CANNOT know.

You "alter" and "add" to God's Word by stating all the above verses only apply "up until the end of the church age." It does NOT say that. These are TIMELESS truths that ALWAYS apply.

Even the elect in heaven, in their sinless souls, do not know the day and hour - Revelation 6:10

Rest assured, you don't.

The Father ONLY knowth the Day and hour - Matthew 24:36. What does the word ONLY mean?

Are you saying you have the same authority as the Father?

Your are guilty of Revelation 22:18, as you massacre the above verses, because of you sinful desire to date set.

We are to ready all the time. Just as you DON'T KNOW the date of your death or anyone else's death, as only God knows, you don't know the Last Day.

Christ can return tonight, or you can die tonight.....and because you were obsessed with some future date, Christ will come upon you as a thief.

APRIL said...

"Watching" has the exact same meaning it always has - for the disciples Jesus spoke to directly, and for us today.

(1) "Watch": Strong's 1127
(2) "Watch": Strong's 3525

And here they both are.

1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch <1127> and be sober <3525>.

1Pe 5:8 Be sober <3525>, be vigilant <1127>; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Campingites, do you see "May 21, 2011" anywhere? (Just a rhetorical question. Please spare me your gobbledeegook replies).

Watch = sober, vigilant

Obviously, the Campingites couldn't care less what "watch" really means. Or who all the "thee's" refer to in Jer. 30:11. Or what 2nd Peter 3's context is. Harold Camping's ministry has become an ocean of lies, scams, perversions and deceptions.

To say that "watching" now relates to calendar watching demonstrates cultish behavior in high definition.

foxx said...

Review of Today's Debate or what may be referred to as 'The Tale of the Tail'.
The youngin fox made a plan to outwit the elder fox, but fox the elder outfoxed the youngin fox. So we shall see if fox the youngin shows his tail again on the morrow.

Fox the youngin's manager really loves fox the youngin and shows it. Now the question remains, will the elder fox find busloads of new little foxes that will return with him, or will fox the youngin find busloads of shopping foxes that will visit his webstore?

Hi said...

To Gary McNees:

Each person is accountable to God for following God's commands. (Ecclesiastes 12:13,14)

As a Bible teaching assist, Mr. Camping's publications and broadcasts are to help people see Biblical proclamations for themselves, as revealed in God's Holy Word, with the hope of God's merciful salvation.

Acts 17:21-30 -- the day of His judgment has been proclaimed by God's Holy Word whether people hear it, believe it, accept it, or like it, or not.

Biblical callings/proclamations have to be each person's concern as it relates particularly to his or her own personal relationship with God.

LAMBSFURY said...

You said:

"Acts 17:21-30 -- the day of His judgment has been proclaimed by God's Holy Word whether people hear it, believe it, accept it, or like it, or not. "

and Acts 17:31 says:

"Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will JUDGE THE WORLD in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." Acts 17:31

And according to Camping, Acts 17:31 does not apply to the Greeks that Paul personally warned.

It only applies to those who are alive at the time of Camping's date settings.

Lets see you prove that from the Bible...

ludwig said...

It is my professional opinion that
Lamswool and White are one in the
same.I remember going to the same college as Jim there were times we studied together on the bench outside the administration building.
Jim sometimes would ask me if I thought he was tall enough to play on the college golf team? I just rolled my eyes and said sure Jim
go for it,sometime he wanted to see my homework.I wouldn't do it.
I'm quit sure that this is the same Jim but who knows the years have pasted.I'm a shrink he's a doctor i wonder if he is a brain surgeon ? I'll ask someone here
Hey does anyone know if White does brains?

Prof.Ludwig Von Duck
be sure to visit my web store
I learned that at college.

Hi said...

LAMBSFURY

If you say Mr. Camping said something, you'll have to contact him regarding such, if you need to discuss.

Regarding judgment, from God's Holy word, we can know each person is judged each time they violate God's law. If a person is unsaved, the law condemns the person to hell in body and soul whether the person is aware of this fact or not. (e.g. Genesis 3; etc.)

Acts 17;21-31 is to the world as the context defines...and it informs people God is not going to continue to ""wink" on His final day of judgment. So during that time, the unsaved will know they are being condemned.

Hi said...

LAMBSFURY

Addendum:

As Romans 7; etc. helps us see more precisely, a person's sin (i.e. transgression of the law) condemns which the person can know by the presence of God's Holy law.

Sending Forth The Gospel said...

I was able to listen to the discussion between Mr. White and Harold Camping.

1. Is Mr. White mad at Harold? It was Mr. Camping this... Mr. Camping that... but not one response from the word of God to refute Mr. Camping. Continually going off topic, inserting endless commentary on a hodge podge of emotionally charged responses. The undertone was volcanic, there is a lot in Mr.White's tone that sounds pent up. Mr. White stay focused and stop the personal digs and exasperating commentary. You are being challenged by God to respond to the Word.

2. Mr. White your responses added no value to the average listener...remember some are not familiar Harold Camping. Whenever you answered a question it was like, OK let me throw in a personal dig... then use some fluffy high brow words...then another personal dig. Please stick to scripture for the edification of the audience.

johannes said...

After listening to this debate i could not thank Holy God more for a faithfull ministery like Family Radio which can even be hear in our continent. I live in South Africa... o my what a blessing it is to know that my fellow african brothers have access to the everlasting gospel via the radio broadcasts of Family Radio. Very few of us have access to satelite dishes, or internet but we all have access to radios.

We listen to this Endtime Gospel message every evening and every morning. From the Bible studies and other programs i not only learned to trust the Bible alone but also learned to check even the teachings a trustworthy teacher like mr Harold Camping. On numerous accassions i heard mr Camping "dont trust me, check the Bible...check the Bible"

What a blessing to hear an obedient servant like mr Camping when he from time to time acknowledge that he stand to be corrected by the Word of God, the Bible.

(Isa 52:7) How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

(Isa 52:8) Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion.

(Isa 52:9) Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.

(Isa 52:10) The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

What a joyfull day... "all nations and all the ends of the earth" can now hear the one everlasting true endtime Gospel message. Even the poorest of the poor of the not so financially bless peoples of the third world can tune in hear the good news of Holy God and the return of His Son, the KING of kings and LORD of lords on 21 Mei 2011.

To God be all the Glory.

May God have mercy on each one of us till He come on the clouds in all His glory on 21 Mei 2011

johannes coetzee

Family Radio listener (Suid Afrika)

APRIL said...

"On numerous accassions i heard mr Camping "dont trust me, check the Bible...check the Bible"

So why don't you? Or is that just a comforting lullabye? That mantra used to help me doze off too, until correction started to pressure me until it finally wake up. It was more like a coma than a sleep. One little doubt led to another until they became full-blown questions. Then they started to multiply so rapidly I would actually pray for the process to slow down. Then I realized my FR "brethren" who had more loyalty to a man than I did weren't at all willing to *really* check the Bible...check the Bible for truth. They could only check the Bible...check the Bible exactly as Harold Camping instructed them to in order to repeat his perversions verbatim. I finally learned that fleeing to the mountain was not referring to Harold Camping at all and had to leave my FR "brethren" behind.

Ex 32:27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

If any of you Campingites ever do begin to sober up, be prepared for a long hard stretch of rehabilitation. That leaven is mighty potent and the confusion does not disappear overnight. You'll be disoriented for many months, but it will be a blessing like none other.

Let me debate Mr. Camping for ten minutes and I'll overwhelm him with scriptures and some of the questions he tightly controls on his Closed Open Forum. He'd be stammering and stuttering and making up all kinds of excuses to run away and hide. I'm no Dr. but I have a Bible that I really do check.

I'm not reviling you, Campingites. I was one of you and I sincerely want you to make it to rehab the way I did.

LAMBSFURY said...

You said:

"Acts 17;21-31 is to the world as the context defines...and it informs people God is not going to continue to ""wink" on His final day of judgment. So during that time, the unsaved will know they are being condemned."

WRONG!!!!!!!

Acts 17:31 has its application upon ALL the human race who ever lived.

It is for that reason that the unsaved are resurrected -

"And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, BOTH of the just and unjust" Acts 24:15

The just AND unjust are resurrected. The unjust are consciously resurrected to face the Day of Judgment, and will consciously stand before Christ. All those on the left hand who stand before Christ in Matthew 25, are not just those "who happen to be alive" at the end...it refers to every human being. All are reserved to the day of Judgment to be punished - II Peter 2:9

EVERY eye will see Christ - Rev 1:7, and the reason that every eye will see Christ return is becaue all humanity is consciously resurrected in body and soul.

It is not every eye will see Him "who happen to be alive at Camping's date settings."

Your doctrine, like Camping's doctrine is APOSTATE...that physical death can ESCAPE the wrath of God, and can ESCAPE consciously standing before Christ.

Weeping and gnashing of teeth in hell, a conscious punishment apply TO ALL THE UNSAVED, all those not elected - Matthew 22:13-14, and ALL sinners - Matthew 13:41-42

Revelation 14:10-11 and the torment defined apply to ALL the unsaved

When Jesus said THOU ART TORMENTED to the rich man who DIED and was BURED in Luke 16:25, Harold Camping does not decide which unsaved this applies to and which unsaved it does not...it applies to ALL the unsaved.

To your dismay....

ReadTheBible said...

I have learned more from the bible studies by Harold Camping on Family Radio in the past year and a half then in the last 30 years in churches (and one in bible college.)
It comes as no surprise that 'many' do not hear or understand the spiritual messages God has hidden in His word.

....."Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Mat 7:14

....."But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are ... foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor 2:14

Mr Camping points out that in the book of Daniel, God tells us that He has sealed a message within His word (The Bible) that will only be revealed in the 'time of the end'

....."But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." Daniel 12:4

We can only hear the message if the Lord gives us ears to hear.

"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God." 1 Cor. 2:11

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

I am very thankful for the ministry of Family Radio. To God be the Glory! Read the Bible!

Jennifer Haseley, Maryland, USA

LAMBSFURY said...

You said,

"Mr Camping points out that in the book of Daniel, God tells us that He has sealed a message within His word (The Bible) that will only be revealed in the 'time of the end'
....."But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." Daniel 12:4"

What you need to prove is that Daniel 12:4 is pointing to Harold Camping and the Family Radio ministry, and you are not going to be able to do that.

The "last days" - Acts 2:17, and the "end of the world" - Hebrews 9:26, also refer to the New Testament period.

What was closed and sealed to Daniel, was opened by Christ - Rev 5:5, and "unsealed." - Rev 22:10

Everything was "unsealed" at the time the Bible was completed, as God gave the final revelation to John.

Because you don't let the Bible define Daniel 12, and look at it as a fulfillment of your favorite Bible teacher, is why you are blinded to greater damnation

Hi said...

LAMBSFURY

"...to the world.." in my earlier post means to the world.

There was no time reference.

Psalms 119

LAMBSFURY said...

"...to the world.." in my earlier post means to the world.

There was no time reference.
*************************
And is it people that come under judgment consciously OR BONES?

Camping's "bones come under wrath" is not only apostate it is pathetic

mlculwell said...

I have called Dr. White the Liar he is my Blog here:

http://manuelculwell.blogspot.com/

Mr. Camping cannot be Oneness as he believes the false teaching "God is three persons" clearly heard on the debate with Dr.White although Camping says at the same time Jesus is the father this in no way makes Camping Oneness but rather some new doctrinal position. Camping is a false prophet for his teachings of Calvinism and "three persons of God"

Brogonni said...

What about when Jesus said "he who have seen me have seen the father" and when he said "I and the father I'm one" is this proof for you because it came out of Jesus mouth
Not Mr. Camping rather GOD him self JESUS.

You sound like muslim, J. witness or rather a catholic.

watchman_2011 said...

Lambsfury - What you pointed out have been answered in the blogs I wrote. Obviously, you don't want to read them. That's OK with me as long as I offered.

BTW, the following verses talk about pastors:

Jeremiah 2:8
The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit.

Jeremiah 10:21
For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered. (perhaps speaking about the many denominations, each of which proclaim they have truth????)

Jeremiah 12:10
Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

Jeremiah 22:22
The wind shall eat up all thy pastors, and thy lovers shall go into captivity: surely then shalt thou be ashamed and confounded for all thy wickedness.

Jeremiah 23:1
Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 23:2
Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 5 (God's vineyard = external church)

BTW, nice pic of you...you must be proud of having a muscular body.

LAMBSFURY said...

You said:

"BTW, the following verses talk about pastor"

And for those teachers that are false, they receive GREATER condemnation - James 3:1

What is GREATER condemnation? A greater shaming of BONES??!!!!

Don't be so absurd

Greater condemnation means a greater torment in hell.

Camping will suffer greater condemnation in hell.

The problem with the Campingites is that they think one can preach a "false gospel" but if they are outside the walls of the churches, that they are immune from God's judgment.

Whether you are in the church or outside the church, if you declare a false gospel, you are under the wrath of God.

watchman_2011 said...

April - When God warns us to "watch", that is, we read the Bible for His return so the true believer will not be surprised by His return. For example,

Matthew 24:43
But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

You have it correct that Watch = being sober spiritually. What's the opposite of being sober spiritually? Yep, you guessed it right...being spiritually drunk. And God proclaims that pastors have gone drunk with their people-friendly teachings on Sundays. And I'm pretty sure they do this to increase church membership.

Anyway, gotta get back to work.

watchman_2011 said...

To the muscular Lambsfury - So I guess we can ignore all the verses that talk about pastors leading their sheep astray, vineyards, watching/being sober, the Flood, the X called his name, etc stuff, huh?

Anyway, I really have to get back to work...will chat with you later.

LAMBSFURY said...

You said:

"So I guess we can ignore all the verses that talk about pastors leading their sheep astray, vineyards, watching/being sober, the Flood, the X called his name, etc stuff, huh?"

Of course not. But when you look at what the churches teach and what Camping teaches, there is not much difference. Camping rejects total depravity like the churches, does not believe in a final judgment day that all stand before Christ, just as the churches ignore(except Camping made it go away altogether) and both Camping and the churches "ignore" eternal torment, as the teaching of eternal hell is at an-all time low in the churches...

Camping just made it go away altogether.

So, the apostasy of the churches has has spread to minstries outside the church, like Camping's cult.

ludwig said...

In my professional opinion and as I look down at the parking lot from high up in the debate executive boxes
I see the Bus's lined up for after the debate as the projections are all ready in from the networks and they project the winner.
the bus's are as follows
1 bus to carry away the listeners that want to shop at Whites web store .

10 bus's to carry back the listeners west to California


you each can decide for yourself who the rael winners are!
and the LOSER....

Professor Ludwig Von Duck

A WITNESS FOR CHRIST, formerly ASK DR PAISLEY said...

James White's "Doctorate" Degree: Is it Legitimate? (Expanded Edition)

Thursday, September 16, 2004
James White's "Doctorate" Degree: Is it Legitimate? (Expanded Edition)

Heretofore, I have stayed out of this controversy about anti-Catholic Baptist apologist James White's doctorate, or lack thereof. But it has been pointed out by several folks that if a person hasn't really earned his "doctorate" degree with the usual amount of work required in most legitimate institutions of higher learning, that this in effect cheapens the achievements of those with real doctorate degrees, and grants the person with the bogus degree a level of respectability that he doesn't deserve, which he then improperly uses in order to bolster his own academic "credentials." I think this is a valid point, so I have decided to weigh in on this issue and present some hard evidence.

Fortunately for my time's sake, the research has already been done, by some Mormons. Apart from the natural animus against White because he refutes Mormon teachings (and I would concur wholeheartedly with him in that effort, because Mormonism is no Christian religion), this issue stands distinct from theological disputes, and it is irrelevant who found out this information, if what they present is valid of its own accord. We mustn't commit the "genetic fallacy."

Full text of article here: Link: http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2004/09/james-whites-doctorate-degree-is-it.html

ReadTheBible said...

Mr Lambsfury you prove my point. You do not hear God's message because you do not have ears to hear.
The revelation that God gave to Daniel regarding the end times made Daniel ill for days, it was so upsetting. You are suggesting that the whole new testament period was so horrible it made Daniel sick to learn of it?? Read the Bible and Pray for mercy Mr Fury.
Harold Camping is simply a humble servant of the Lord Jesus Christ, and just like any other true believer, all of God's sheep can hear his voice. The message is not just to Mr Camping, it is to all who have ears to hear.

Hi said...

The Biblical reference are clear regarding the timeline and so are the timeframes from God's Holy Bible. Anyone who has a basic understanding of addition and factoring can comprehend God's timeline revealed.

I am neither a mathematician nor claim to be a Dr., but I added the numbers God has provided by His word. The 4990 B.C. is the Biblical date of the flood and the entire timeline has been revealed accordingly...and all and only from God's word.

Believe it or not, like it or not, accept it or not, God's Holy Bible has a definite warning: the world's end [beginning 5/21/2011] has been revealed from the Bible itself.

No matter how many people may cry out against it because they can't hear, see, accept or even add numbers of the Holy Bible, people can be sure God's will will be done in perfection of His salvation and judgment program.

LAMBSFURY said...

You said:

"Believe it or not, like it or not, accept it or not, God's Holy Bible has a definite warning: the world's end [beginning 5/21/2011] has been revealed from the Bible itself."

No, that is not the definite warning.

"Whom we preach WARNING every man.." Colossians 1:28

What is the warning God is talking about here? May 21?

Don't be absurd.

The "warning" is that ETERNAL TORMENT is coming upon all the unsaved.

And the warning is that one has no guarantee to live another day and that Christ can come any time....and that eternal torment will be fulfilled

We don't warn the world that they will be annihilated 'like the flowers'

You make God's wrath a complete joke

june said...

I must confess that I did not understand much of what either one of these men said in this debate.
I was not edified! Sounded more like something Paul would have heard on Mars Hill where the philosophers convened.(Acts 17)
Or the endless babbling that Catholic theologians are noted for, who are the masters of confusion, of which I should know, for I was one before I was converted to Christ by His grace!

Thanks be to God for the simplicity that is found in Christ!
How much more plain is the “doctrine of Christ”?

John 7:15-17:
“And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.”

How comforting to know in truth that you don't have to be a “doctor” and/or theologian to be saved, for “Salvation is of the Lord” (Jonah 2:9)

Matt. 11:25-26:
“At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.”

Ps. 119:130:
“The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.”

1 John 5:20:
“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him, that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”

Luke 24:45:
“Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,”

Rom. 1:16:
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

I KNOW WHOM I HAVE BELIEVED! (II Tim. 1:12)

Sean said...

If anyone would like to hear one of the Biblical proofs pointing to may 21, 2011 that Harold Camping was trying to explain in 3 minute segments during the debate, the information can be better heard and understood in this video at YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ldtc89fG8x0

Hi said...

LAMBSFURY

Did God warn Noah? (Yes, a definite 120 years and then a definite 7 days before the flood -- Genesis 6,7;Hebrews 11:7)

Did God warn Nineveh? (Yes, a definite 40 days before -- Book of Jonah)

God is merciful to give advanced warning. God's judgment is also sure and very serious as the flood was evidence.

John 17:17; etc. Amen.

APRIL said...

Watchman_2011,

Read the verse again with me:

Matthew 24:43:
But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be *BROKEN UP*.

If the goodman had known in what watch the thief would come and watched, then what?

Does his knowing and watching prevent the thief's arrival? Or, does his knowing and watching prevent his house from being *BROKEN UP* by the thief?

You are skimming over some very important words and thereby falling under a strong delusion.

Let me repeat what I posted here previously. Matthew 24:43 compliments these verses perfectly:

Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted *WORTHY TO ESCAPE* all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Being raptured is not "escaping". We must first stand before the Son of man.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should *OVERTAKE* you as a thief.

Watchman, how sad that you believe that those who don't believe in and predict May 21, 2011 for the return of Christ will be "surprised" by the event. I can assure you that I will NOT be "surprised" by the return of the Lord. I expect to be "amazed", "overjoyed",
"awed" and "ecstatic" beyond words. But no, Sir (or Madam), I will not be at all "surprised". That is only what YOU say. And of course, Harold Camping.

Jesus gives us the biblical timeline in one word and it's all we need to know about chronology: "QUICKLY".

Here's a spiritual number you can't factor into your timeline. "I come quickly" is stated four (4) times (universality) in Rev. 3:11, Rev. 22:7, Rev. 22:12 and Rev. 22:20.

You don't accept that the the believers come under judgment "first" (1st Pet. 4:17) so you are unable to connect the dots of these verses to the truth that believers still need deliverance (salvation, mercy, forgiveness). This is why the Lord says that He will return "as a thief". The believers know they will be delivered when He comes and therefore they are ready every minute of every day. You are really watching for a day 21 months in the future instead of for Christ, Himself.

LAMBSFURY said...

You said:

"Did God warn Noah? (Yes, a definite 120 years and then a definite 7 days before the flood --Genesis 6,7;Hebrews 11:7)"

And when God warned Noah and Nineveh, they were DIRECT statements, and direct revelation. And these judgments were NOT the Last Day and the end of the world.
No statement exists in the Bible about May 21. If God meant for your date settings to be a warning, there would be a DIRECT statement in the Bible that says so for all humanity to hear. There is NOT.

When the disciples asked Jesus WHEN in Matthew 24:3, if May 21 was the end, that means Jesus LIED to them when He said no man knoweth the hour.

When the disciples asked Jesus WHEN in Acts 1:6, He said that information is not going to be revealed to man - Acts 1:7

Is Jesus lying to them?

So, your "this is in the Bible" is 100% false.

If the Last Day was going to be revealed to the world, Jesus would never say the Father ONLY knoweth - Matthew 24:36

What does the word ONLY mean? Can you read?

What does the word ONLY mean in Matthew 24:36?

Do you believe the Word of God, or do you add to it?

You are guilty of Rev 22:18, and Satan has snared you

Hi said...

LAMBSFURY

Referring to Genesis 6,7, how many people of the entire world harkened to God's warning for 120 years of God's impending flood (judgment) upon the world in Noah's day? (Only eight people including Noah)

5/21/2011 has been proclaimed from God's Holy Bible but who will harken? (see: Matthew 24:37,38; Luke 17:26,27).

APRIL said...

Here's an example to show why I have fled from all teachers. I'm no supporter of Dr. White's method of interpretation, but FR teacher Chris McCann states to his students:

McCann: "Christ is the Word of God. And (the Word) said, "without a parable
He did not speak". This statement is absolutely true once we understand that
this means "without hiding truth" God did not speak to us anywhere in the Bible."

So I wonder how Chris would explain:

Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Joh 16:28-19 ¶ I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. 29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

All words of Scripture are important, not just phrases we isolate for our own purposes:

Mt 13:34 All these things spake Jesus *UNTO THE MULTITUDES* in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Mr 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them:

and then what?

...and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

I would say teacher Chris needs a Teacher himself. As do I and all of my former teachers. And everyone else.

Christ's use of parables is an enriching study for anyone who owns a Bible and a concordance. We don't need teachers to confuse us. Go straight to the Word and eliminate the middle man.

Sean said...

Mt 13:34 All these things spake Jesus *UNTO THE MULTITUDES* in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Mr 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them:

and then what?

...and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.


April, are you saying that Matthew 24 is to be read completely literally because the Bible says that Christ spoke to the disciples privately in the beginning of that chapter?

Sean said...

Sorry, i misstated the verse. Here is the verse i was referring to:

(Matthew 24:3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

LAMBSFURY said...

You said:

"5/21/2011 has been proclaimed from God's Holy Bible but who will harken? (see: Matthew 24:37,38; Luke 17:26,27)."

And every date setter the past 2000 years all say the same thing. Camping said his 1994 date was from the Word of God and those who did not believe it would be caught without salvation.....so much for your progressive revelation prophet.

Again....what does the word ONLY mean in Matthew 24:36?

Can you read?

LAMBSFURY said...

"These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall NO MORE speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you PLAINLY of the Father" John 16:25

A reminder to the apostate Campingites...

The Bible is not one big parable. You want it to be one big parable because then you you make God's Judgment go away,like eternal torment. That is why Camping made Christ's return as invisible....because he wants to parablize away Christ Himself as just as parable...

APRIL said...

Sean,

What kind of question is that? Of course there is parabolic language used in Matthew 24, and in most chapters.

What I have discovered is that many folks have a big problem understanding the use of parables and parabolic language. The Bible is not only parabolic as Chris McCann stated. Parables hid the truth from the multitudes, but Jesus explained them to His disciples. The verses I shared clearly show that Jesus absolutely did speak plainly.

Here is another literal, or plainly stated verse from Mt. 24:

Mt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

This verse and many others in the chapter are very plainly stated and not at all "parables".

In order to learn truth and find much needed correction, we have to be ready to read one phrase as literal and the next as parabolic. For the believers, the use of earthly language in parables enhances the plain teaching because we learn spiritual truth with our earthly faculties.

The disciples of Jesus' day represented ALL believers, in the same way ALL believers living today represent ALL believers who ever lived. This is the "one body" doctrine (1 Cor. 12) which FR teachers have turned into "two bodies" (church age believers & post-church age believers).

Ask yourself this question without running to either Harold Camping or Chris McCann or Darrell Lockridge for the answer:

Who was Jesus addressing when He spoke these words in the verses below? Only the believers in His hearing? Or EVERY believer?

Mr 8:18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?

Mr 8:21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

Lu 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Your teachers teach that the body of Christ is already perfect, full of understanding, never forgetful, and living only to save the world with a timeline when in fact, we are like the Ninevites needed to repent.

I keep warning, STOP listening to "teachers". They are no different from any of us who need understaind and a LOT of correction from all the traditions of men we have absorbed. Ask and ye shall receive. If you ask for understanding, you will receive it (if you are indeed a "true" believer).

APRIL said...

Sean,

I believe Mt. 24:3 is very plainly stated without the use of parabolic language.

Don't you see that also, or am I misunderstanding you?

Hi said...

LAMBSFURY

God has spoken plainly through God's Holy Bible. As plainly as God spoke to Jonah and Noah to warn them and the world of God's impending judgment. Again, see Genesis 6,7 and Book of Jonah.

BTW: I have never read "1994?" .....the question mark was there on the front cover, and I saw it in the pic I have. So, that book had no established prophecy as the front cover indicated clearly.

ludwig said...

White and the host made fools of themselves,
they were in fact attempting to gain customers for there web-stores.
if one takes the time to review the comment section you will clearly see
that the favorable posts went to Camping.
the host was "selling Whites books there must have been a commission paid for each sale to the host,and it was so out in the open...HOW SAD,HOW SAD.
I PREDICT THAT IN THE VERY NEAR FUTURE WE WILL SEE BOTH wHITE AND THE HOST FOLD UP THERE STORES AND
TALK SHOWS THEN WHAT WILL THEY DO ????
OH WHAT A STORY THEY WILL LEAVE!

By the way ..all the books that white sells cost money plus shipping

all the books from family radio are FREE AND NO COST FOR SHIPPING
NOW watch this just like the host did ..
call 1 800 543 1495this is a free call and order your copy of
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Thanks to both Jim & Chris
for the idea..........

Sending Forth The Gospel said...

I was thinking out loud. If April married Lambsfury (well at at least in rhetoric they are... wait does that count?), the name would be April Lambsfury. Wow something to ponder.

I figure since they like to dish it out a little name play is harmless, at least by their obvious standards. They must have been the mean kids on the playground. You know like bullies who really needed a friend. Although they are all grown up and I betcha they would say, "I don't need anyone, I have all my layers of bawdy rhetoric to keep me company".

It would be refreshing if they actually posted something worth reading.

P.S. They would win the Spelling Bee if the announcer said ok April Lambsfury... the word is Campingites...

P.S.S I believe in the 2,000 blogs they have posted this single word (Campingites ) is their cure all when they just want to dispense with remembering how to treat strangers and make blanket statements that are so diminishing because being merciful is just too much work.

swordsearcher said...

Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

swordsearcher said...

Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

APRIL said...

To Sending Forth The Gospel:

Touche. Also, "Ouch." You really know how to hurt me. FYI, Lambsfury may be an Aprilite, but I am definitely not a Furian.

But, bring us more of that humor, Sending Forth. We don't want to get too serious about all the tough questions I've been challenging you with.

I understand your reluctance. I used to despise correction from others too.

LAMBSFURY said...

You said:

"BTW: I have never read "1994?" .....the question mark was there on the front cover, and I saw it in the pic I have. So, that book had no established prophecy as the front cover indicated clearly."

You keep forgetting that the following year there was a follow up to the book 1994? called "Are You Ready?" where Camping made the date absolute. He claimed all this "new evidence" appeared over the next year sealing the deal. And he was wrong.

He spent 2 years from 1992-1994 doing Bible studies everyday showing how 1994 was the end. So, don't believe the idea that Camping just made a casual reference to 1994. He was on debates, was on CNN's Larry King Live, was even on a show on NBC, where he announced that the printing equipment that FR uses came from The Jim Jones Compound & The People's Temple. FR must have had some alliance with the People's Temple.

In 1995, Camping looked to Satanic astrology to predict the end, and claimed that he knew the patterns of cycles of stars called "ceros" and that by these patterns of stars, he could predict the end....he failed again

In the original 1983 version of the "Fig Tree" Camping predicted that Israel would be destroyed in 1988. It never happened.

FR pulled this original book off the shelf once this date passes.

So, Camping and his astrology and his progressive revelations have failed again and again....

So much for your satanic progressive revelations...

swordsearcher said...

Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


Why because Christ was hidden from them on purpose!

And you literalist think the serpent in the desert wasn't a parable that is unless it declares itself to be one.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Hum, I guess it was a parable after all!

Hi said...

LAMBSFURY

People have all kinds of vendettas/harsh opinions directed towards other human beings for whatever reasons.

The question is not what is someone else up to, but what is one's own relationship with God. No one can answer that question except oneself for oneself as defined in:
Romans 8:16

APRIL said...

Some quotes by Harold Camping from his book 1994? that do not end in a question mark:

"The results of this study teach that the month of September of the year 1994 is to be the time for the end of history." (Pg. 533)

"When September 6, 1994 arrives, no one else can become saved. The end has come." (Pg. 533)

"We have discovered that God had developed a very interesting and harmonious chronology for the earth. From our very superior vantage point - of being near the end of time - we can see how it all goes together." (Page 527)

"It should also be emphasized that this is not a time for theological debate...The time for that kind of argumentation is long past." (Pg. 534)

"Our study of the Bible concerning the year of Christ's return has encompassed a great amount of Scripture...and we have found tremendous harmony between the Scriptures."

"Select any year other than 1994 and then try to find Biblical support for that year." (Pg. 483)

"Indeed, we shall see that even though there will come a time when the believers will know considerably more about the timing of the coming of Christ, they will not know the day nor the hour of His return."

And my favorite 1994? quote, which needs no question mark:

"Predicted dates passed by and the world continues to exist...Thus the prophets who made the predictions have been shown to be without authority and without wisdom". (Pg. 311).

Harold Camping doesn't try to hide the fact that he likes to share his dreams and visions. An Addendum on page 535 states:

"While there is no Biblical sanction for this addendum and therefore, it carries no weight whatsoever, there is a very curious fact that shows up.

During the twentieth century there are only six years that have the unique distinction of having the sum of the integers adding up to the number twenty-three. These are 1949, 1958, 1967, 1976, 1985, and 1994.

1 + 9 + 9 + 4 = 23

Curiously, the next year that has this characteristic is the year 2399, which is more than 400 years from now."

LAMBSFURY said...

Jonathan Edwards addresses the annihilation apostasy that infected his day..

It's not a "new unsealing" but an old lie.

http://www.jonathan-edwards.org/Eternity.html

"It is strange how men will go DIRECTLY AGAINST so PLAIN and full revelations of Scripture, as to suppose notwithstanding all these things, that the eternal punishment threatened against the wicked signifies no more than annihilation" Jonathan Edwards

LAMBSFURY said...

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into THE LAKE OF FIRE and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be TORMENTED day and night FOR EVER AND EVER."  Revelation 20:10 - KJV

The "condition" that exists in the ETERNAL LAKE OF FIRE is not annihilation as the Campingites say, but TORMENT.

Looking at faithful commentaries of Revelation 20:10:

"And they - All these. Shall be tormented day and night - That is, WITHOUT ANY INTERMISSION. Strictly speaking, there is only night there: no day, no sun, no hope!" Wesley Notes

"Day and night-figurative for WITHOUT INTERMISSION (Re 22:5), such as now is caused by night interposing between day and day. The same phrase is used of the external state of the blessed (Re 4:8). As the bliss of these is ETERNAL, so the woe of Satan and the lost must be."  Jamieson-Fausset Brown

"The doom and punishment of the grand enemy, the devil: he is now cast into hell, with his two great officers, the beast and the false prophet, tyranny and idolatry, and that not for any term of time, but to be there TORMENTED night and day, FOR EVER AND EVER."  Matthew Henry

"Cast into the lake of fire . . . they will be TORMENTED day and night forever and ever: After this aborted battle, Satan is then judged and TORMENTED FOREVER"  David Guziks Commenataries

"and as if Satan, the great leader of evil, should be cast into the same lake where the beast and false prophet are, to be TORMENTED FOREVER"  Barnes Notes

"that is, NOT ONLY the devil, but the beast and false prophet, for the word is in the PLURAL number: and this will be the case of ALL WICKED MEN, of all whose minds are enmity to God and Christ, and to his people; and is a PROOF of the ETERNITY of HELL TORMENTS."  John Gill Commentaries

Revelation 20:10 defeats the Campingites, defeats Camping, defeats the Family Radio ministry, and shows that the false religion called "Campingism" is "wormwood" that is being used to poison the world to greater damnation in the torments of hell...

LAMBSFURY said...

Acts 23:6-8 & Neo Sadduceeism

"But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I AM A PHARISEE, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.  For the Sadducees say that there is NO RESURRECTION, NEITHER ANGEL, NOR SPIRIT: but the Pharisees confess BOTH."  Acts 23:6-8

From these verses we see the followin truths:

1. Paul was a Pharisee and denied annihilation
2. The Pharisees believe in a resurrection, both of angel and spirit
3. The Sadducees deny any resurrection
4. God used a Pharisee as one of the holy men to write the Bible

"The doctrine held by the Sadducees is this, that the souls die with the bodies"  Josephus - antiquities b.28:4

"They take away the belief of the immortal existence of the soul and the punishment and rewards of Hades." Josephus -War b. 8:14.

Therefore, Paul never believed in the doctrine of "annihilation" and "ceasing to exist."

He believed in a resurrection, both of the just and unjust - Acts 24:15

According to groups like the Campingites, Paul, whom God used to write much of the New Testament, was false......

While the Sadducces believed in doctrines like annihilation, today we have Neo-Sadducces groups:

1. The Watchtower
2. SDA
3. Family Radio & The Campingites

So, in order for groups like this to defend their apostasy, they have to conclude that people like Paul (whom God used) was "blinded" as he believed in a resurrection of the just and unjust, being a Pharisee......and that the Sadducces were the ones who had the truth.

This is the delusion that the Campingites want you to believe.

"Tribulation and ANGUISH, upon EVERY SOUL OF MAN that DOETH EVIL, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile" Romans 2:9

The Word of God crushes false annihilation cults like Campingism

Tom

APRIL said...

Chris McCann states on parables:

"...the following verses are not parabolic in the same way Jesus spoke parables."

Right here is where Chris contradicts himself. This is Chris' exact quote in the very same study:

McCann: "Christ is the Word of God. And (the Word) said, "without a parable He did not speak". This statement is absolutely true once we understand that this means "without hiding truth" God did not speak to us anywhere in the Bible."

Chris continues:

"However, once we understand that the essence of a parabolic statement is hidden truth, then we come to see that yes the following statements are parabolic in the sense that each one is not teaching truth plainly, but serves
to hide truth:

Acts 16.31: And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Genesis 1.1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

First, Acts 16:31 in no way "serves to hide truth". It is absolutely TRUE exactly as it is plainly stated. There is a big difference between a "parable" and a "paradox". Acts 16:31 is plainly stated, but it is called a PARADOX. That means that although it is plainly stated and absolutely true, there are other verses seem to contradict it which are also plainly stated and absolutely true.

Secondly, how does Gen. 1:1 in any way at all "serve to hide truth"?

No one needs to ever hear a parable to have the truth remain hidden from them. We are born with the truth already hidden from us.

Pr 1:7 ¶ The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

When we receiving wisdom and understanding, it comes from both literal and parabolic teaching.
Both are "spiritual" when applied to our minds.

If we don't know the difference between "spiritual", "literal", "parable" and "paradox", we will be led astray by teachers every time. However, if our emotional need for them is BROKEN by God, then the Holy Spirit takes His rightly place as our Teacher immediately.

"...he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself."

The essential meaning of every phrase of the Bible, whether expressed literally, parabolically or paradoxically is ALL SPIRITUAL and we always need God to expound upon it for clearer understanding of HIM.

I admit I'm not good at explaining all this, but my main point is that neither are the teachers who need the Holy Spirit's teaching just as much as I do.

ludwig said...

Since the debate was so one sided and the HOST was really selling HARD
FOR james white who by the way conferred on himself the title DR.
Oh how sad but in this day and age anything and everything is possible.
Well since the host promoted every thing under the sun for white,I thought that it would only be fair to do the same for the other side
so please review
this material from FAMILY RADIO....

Who and What is Family Radio?

The Bible - Text Version Program schedule for your area AM / FM stations in your area

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Family Radio News
Volume 44 - #1 - 2009

New Publications
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Tracts
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Main Library
I Hope God will Save Me The Wheat and Tares The End of the Church Age...and After Family Hymnal Through the Bible in a Year The Perfect Harmony ... Adam When? 70 Weeks of Daniel Nine First Principles of Bible Study Let the Oceans Speak Baptism What God hath Joined Together Biblical Calendar of History Lord, Teach Us to Pray Topics from the Open Forum Glorious Garden of Eden, The How Do I Know the Bible is True Speaking in Tongues Sunday the Sabbath

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God


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LAMBSFURY said...

"I have seen by divine revelation the TOTAL ANNIHILATION of this country and many other parts of the world. San Francisco will be flattened. The only survivors will be those people who are hidden in the cave that I have been shown in a vision. Those who go into this cave with me will be saved from the poisonous radio-active fallout that will follow the nuclear bomb attack. This cave is what led our church to migrate to this little valley from Indianapolis, Indiana. I have been shown that this cave goes deep into the earth. All the members of my church will stay in it until it is safe to come out." (Jones quoted in Mills, 1979:128).

‘Death is NOT a fearful thing. It’s living that’s cursed " Jim Jones quoted in Maaga, 1998:149, 151).

Annihilation cults are the most dangerous and apostate.

When you just have a cult that sets dates, that in itself is dangerously evil. When you combine a date setting cult with an "annihilation" doctrine, that becomes even more dangerous.

What these annihilation cults believe is that one can "escape" their understanding of the end, by "death." That suicide is a way out from coming face to face with God.

This is what the Campingites believe.....as they claim and teach that all the evil sinners of history past have totally escaped facing God. The Campingites offer "death" as a way out. They subtly teach suicide.

When you believe in the absolute truth of eternal torment and standing before Christ at the end, that discourages suicide because death cannot escape standing before God. That makes living every day so important:

"If in THIS LIFE ONLY we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." I Corinthians 15:19

"And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, BOTH of the JUST and UNJUST." Acts 24:15

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to RESERVE the UNJUST unto THE DAY OF JUDGMENT to be PUNISHED" II Peter 2:9

"Tribulation and ANGUISH, upon EVERY SOUL OF MAN that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile" Romans 2:9

All humanity cannot escape the Judgment of God, as all the unjust will be resurrected, as they are "reserved" unto the Day of Judgment to be punished, as anguish comes upon every soul of unsaved man.

With these sure and certain truths, as miseable men, in "this life only" is there hope...

Hope that Christ can save one from this torment which none will escape...

However, if one holds an apostate date setting annihilation satanic doctrine, that will encourage "suicide" before the "expected date" as they think they can escape Judgment Day and escape standing before God......

As Camping clearly teaches that all those who have died, no matter how evil, have "escaped" standing before Christ. Thus he believes that suicide can escape standing before God.

Reject Camping's Satanic annihilation cult, and know that all humanity cannot escape standing before Christ.

Tom

ludwig said...

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foxx said...

attention:
Lambswool =Tom + jAMES WHITE
LESS THE DR.DEGREE.
KNOW THIS jIM ..THAT YOUR WRITING MATCHES YOUR SPEAKING TO A TEE!
IT'S A DEAD-GIVE -AWAY.

APRIL said...

Here are Family Radio's EBible Fellowship teacher Chris McCann's explanations for why he believes Acts 16:31, Gen. 1:1 and Rom. 5:1 "serve to hide truth", even though they are not written parabolically:

CM: "In Acts 16:31 the command is to believe, and many take this verse as a plain statement to believe and be saved. But the child of God has been taught that no, we can never believe satisfactorily to the point of obtaining salvation---so we search the Bible and find there is much hidden truth concerning God'ssalvation plan. God Himself must do all the work in saving His people." END-QUOTE

Chris' explanation of Acts 16:31 is very misleading. The verse does not "hide" any truth at all. The question of free will vs. grace alone is not the teaching here. The teaching of that doctrine is found in many other places (i.e., John 15:16) but it is not being taught in Acts 16:31 by hiding it. Whoever believes that they can *believe* through their own free will does have truth hidden from them, but we cannot say that Acts 16:31 is hiding that truth.

Chris continues:

CM: "Likewise, Genesis 1:1 is not as plain and simple as it appears on the surface. It's not until we dig further into the Bible do we come to understand why the word "God" is a plural word 'Elohim'. As we read more in the Bible of course,we find that God is a Triune God." END-QUOTE

Yes, Genesis 1:1 *IS* as plain and simple as it appears on the surface! Is Genesis 1:1 supposed to be teaching us the doctrine of the Trinity as well as the doctrine of creation? "Yes", according to teacher Chris McCann. This is how teachers confuse. The fact is, we are not to be questioning the Trinity when we are reading the plainly stated truth of Gen. 1:1. They are two separate doctrines which Chris is mixing together to prove his own (and Mr. Camping's) "The Bible is completely parabolic" idea.

Just because we also learn that God is three Persons (btw, Campingites, Jesus is most definitely not *ALSO* the Father), does not mean that Gen. 1:1 is "hiding" anything.

Chris continues:

CM: "Romans 5:1 also contains hidden truth. As we search out justification by 'faith', we see that whenever the Bible speaks of justifying faith, or saving faith, it is always the Lord Jesus Christ that is in view and never man.
Jesus declared in Hebrews 10:7: Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Christ is the Word of God." END-QUOTE

No, Romans 5:1 does NOT "contain hidden truth". There is more truth to be learned from the rest of the Bible, but how on earth can a verse "contain" hidden truth unless the truth can somehow be revealed from the same verse?

In the case of Romans 5:1, there is simply more to be learned about faith. But unfortunately, that idea is way too simple and easy for those who need to hear their favorite teachers' many long and confusing explanations.

One of the most powerful tactics a false teacher can use is Harold Camping's famous "The Bible is not perspicuous" line. When this idea is conveyed to the masses, the masses will not be anxious when they hear confused explanations, such as the one Chris McCann shared with his students on parables. Jesus desires to be understood by His people, which is why He DID speak very plainly - along with His parables.

CM: "And (the Word) said, "without a parable He did not speak". This statement is absolutely true once we understand that this means "without hiding truth" God did not speak to us anywhere in the Bible." END-QUOTE

Ps 119:99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.

Contrary to Chris's statement above, Psalm 119:99, like many other passages of the Bible, could not be more perspicuous. Psalm 119:99 is plain, straighforward teaching that hides nothing.

What Chris seems to be teaching is that the Word of God is deceptive, which proves to me that Chris needs a Teacher himself.

june said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
LAMBSFURY said...

"But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: BUT NOW he is comforted, and THOU ART TORMENTED." Luke 16:25

3 simple words destroy the false satanic religion of Campingism and all other annihilation cults.

3 simple words that God Himself warned to His disciples and this warning is upon all.

3 simple words that Jesus declared of the rich man AFTER he DIED and was BURIED - Luke 16:22

3 simple words that destroy all of Camping's slaves, the entire Family Radio ministry and every false tracts that they send to the world.

3 simple words.......THOU ART TORMENTED

The declaration from God Himself to the unsaved rich man after he DIED

THOU ART TORMENTED

Just as Lazarus was in heaven in comfort, a very real truth, the rich man was tormented in hell.

3 simple words that destroy Camping's Satanic ministry.

3 simple words that Jesus declared

The warning of THOU ART TORMENTED is a warning that applies to ALL.

The Campingites would love for this to say

"And thou art annihilated."

But they can't. There is only so much butchering of verses that they can do.

Ask any Campingite you happen to see, who the warning of THOU ART TORMENTED applies to, and watch them run like cowards.

They know they can't answer it.

They know they can't wipe away the warning from God Himself upon all the human race.

3 simple words destroys the Campingites, as God Himself destroys them.

THOU ART TORMENTED.

"Let them be confounded and TROUBLED FOR EVER; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish" Psalm 83:17

"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and HE SHALL BE TORMENTED with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of THEIR TORMENT ascendeth up FOR EVER AND EVER: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." Revelation 14:10-11

"And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and YOUR AGREEMENT WITH HELL shall NOT STAND; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be TRODDEN DOWN BY IT.From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be A VEXATION only to understand the report. " Isaiah 28:18-19

The Campingites know the Bible defeats them.

Jesus Himself defeats the Campingites, as just 3 simple words destroys Camping's Satanic ministry.

THOU ART TORMENTED

Dead is not dead.

The Campingites = a cult out of the pit of hell

Tom

APRIL said...

"june",

It's very curious that you don't say *why* you think my post from my own blog about Tom is "worth replicating here". Did you have something you wanted to say to Tom about his church affiliation - in your own words?

I would say that the topic of Family Radio's president Harold Camping is far more interesting than whether or not Tom Lambsfury actually attends church.

Tom knows where my blog is and if he was interested, he would have read it and replicated it here himself. However, Tom would probably never admit that he reads my blog, so you have very graciously brought the Mountain to Mohammed.

LAMBSFURY said...

You said:

"In any case, if Tom is playing hooky from church today, his pastor could easily find out."

I attend both the OPC and CRC churches. Hardcore Total Depravity churches...If Camping's slaves can attend the apostate Alameda church, everyone else is free to attend where they want to go. The point of trying to find a faithful church and fellowshipping is to be obedient to Hebrews 10:25 and find like minded people.

You said:

"Unless Tom has relocated, he lives in New York City"

I am sure where you got that delusion. I never lived in NYC. I live in upstate NY, and work in NJ.

You may want to focus on more important things like how you also have been snared with the annihilation lie, and how you believe other absurd doctrines like there is no eternal soul and that no believers are in heaven now.

Even most churches don't believe such idiocy...

APRIL said...

"Even most churches don't believe such idiocy..."

Well then, color me corrected!

june said...

April,

For now, all I have to say with respect to the so-called debate is what I have already said in a prior post:

I must confess that I did not understand much of what either one of these men said in this debate.
I was not edified! Sounded more like something Paul would have heard on Mars Hill where the philosophers convened.(Acts 17)
Or the endless babbling that Catholic theologians are noted for, who are the masters of confusion, of which I should know, for I was one before I was converted to Christ by His grace!

Thanks be to God for the simplicity that is found in Christ!
How much more plain is the “doctrine of Christ”?

I have had in answer to prayer been given "pastors and teachers" in the past that have fed and profited me spiritually (and some who even now continue to feed me with) "knowledge and understanding",(Jer.3:15), some with a genuine, earned doctorate in Theology and some though "unlearned" men, like Peter and John, are worthy of taking knowledge of, in that they too have been with Jesus. (Acts 4:13) Men, who by the depth of their preaching I sense are truly converted. Men whose ministry is marked by sound doctrine and the wholesome words of our Lord Jesus Christ! (1 Tim.6:3-6; II Tim. 4:2-4)
In each case, they preach as did Paul who confessed that he was determined to preach . . "only Christ and Him crucified".
(1 Cor.2:1-5)

So long as Christ is central to each of their ministries and so long as He and His person and His work is exalted, I will continue to listen to them. Christ must have all the preeminence . . Like John the Baptist they understand that Christ must increase and they must decrease. This is the distinguishing mark of a faithful servant of the Lord!

John 10:27:
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

LAMBSFURY said...

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall AWAKE, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" Daniel 12:2

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall HEAR HIS VOICE, And shall COME FORTH; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28-29

"The queen of the south shall RISE UP in the judgment WITH THE MEN of this generation, and CONDEMN THEM; for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." Luke 11:31-32

"And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be A RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, BOTH of the JUST and UNJUST." Acts 24:15

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be RESERVED unto JUDGMENT" II Peter 2:4

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to RESERVE the UNJUST unto THE DAY OF JUDGMENT to be PUNISHED: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities." II Peter 2:9-10

"And THE SEA GAVE UP THE DEAD which were in it; and death and hell DELIVERED UP THE DEAD which were in them: and they were JUDGED EVERY MAN according to THEIR WORKS." Revelation 20:13

"But I say unto you, That EVERY IDLE WORD that men shall speak, they shall GIVE ACCOUNT thereof in THE DAY OF JUDGMENT" Matthew 12:36

Attn: Family Radio/Latter Rain apostates

I know you fear Camping. You fear his satanic authority. You fear disobeying him.

However, you must only fear God.

In the above verses, which describe the resurrection of the unsaved at Judgment Day, do you actually think all these verses describe a resurrection of bones and feces that Camping is claiming?

Don't be so pathetically ridiculous

In Daniel 12:2, the unsaved AWAKE. People awake, not bones and feces.

In John 5:28-29, the unsaved "hear his voice" and "come forth"

In Luke 11:31-32, the elect rise up WITH the unsaved and will condemn them

In Acts 24:15, there is a resurrection of BOTH the JUST and UNJUST. It does not say the "bones" of the unjust.

In II Peter 2:9-10, the unsaved are RESERVED unto the Day of Judgment to be PUNISHED. Are you saying that bones and feces are reserved?

in Revelation 20:13, the dead are "delivered up" and JUDGED every MAN according to their WORKS. Notice, the works of man are judged when the dead are delivered up. Bones and feces is not in view.

In Matthew 12:36, every idle word that men shall speak, they shall GIVE ACCOUNT in the Day of Judgment.

Bones, teeth and feces don't "give account" of "every idle word."

Face it, you are done.

You know Camping is false. You know his doctrines are absurd and apostate.

But you fear him and you can't break away from that fear.....so you must obey him and all his satanic, absurd doctrines.

APRIL said...

june,

I'm still missing your point. I think it's fine for us to quote others, but only in the context of our own thoughts and opinions. What comment did you have in regard to the post you copied and shared here from my blog?

You could have commented directly on my blog, but since you felt it was "worth replicating here", I'll be happy to address any direct question you might have for me about what I wrote.

Tom is also free to ask me direct questions (by addressing me by my name), but his usual tactic is to announce to others what I believe without asking me what I believe - or why. I'm not a big apologist - either on behalf of the Scriptures or myself, so unless I'm asked directly, folks will believe whatever they want to believe about me.

My false statement about Tom's residency is just further proof: Don't believe anyone about anything.

june said...

April,

I have removed the post at your blog from this blog / forum. I believe in retrospect, as you have pointed out, that the post at your blog re: Tom in fact has no bearing upon the subject-matter here, and so I have removed it.

My apologies,

June

APRIL said...

June,

Thanks for removing my post for the sake of keeping the discussion where it should be focused.

I'm sorry to be a comment hog myself, but would like to address your previous comments about faithful teachers and theologians.

I was brought up in the Dutch Reformed Church and a very conservative Lutheran church in the '50's. The then-still-faithful, but imperfect church is the most cherished memory of my past. I still read the Puritans, Pink, Watson, Spurgeon and others daily, but I can't deny that I now must experience what they were not meant to experience, just as they did they experience what Adam, Moses and Daniel experienced. I can be very blessed by their insights even though they lived in a different era. The body of Christ is always "one" but we do not all walk in the same shoes.

It was a joy and great privilege to stand in the congregation to hear the Word declared by the pastor who typified Moses. But in retrospect I realize that these traditions never had any saving power. I now see how God allowed these traditions for the sake of saving His elect.

Despite a lot of false traditions of men that survived in the church through the centuries, many of the faithful church fathers understood the "old paths" of Jeremiah 6:16 which Family Radio now destroys for the sake of a date prediction. It really is hard for me to witness this stunning falling away.

I am not one of those who never knew firsthand how glorious the church once was, but I have grown with the changing times and now see things in a different light.

So, I really believe anyone can learn from anyone at all, while at the same time remembering that all men are "liars" who are never be trusted for truth.

LAMBSFURY said...

"For as the NEW HEAVENS and the NEW EARTH, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall GO FORTH, and LOOK UPON the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their WORM SHALL NOT DIE, NEITHER SHALL THEIR FIRE BE QUENCHED; and they shall be an ABHORRING unto all flesh." Isaiah 66:22-24

"Where their WORM DIETH NOT, and the FIRE is NOT QUENCHED." Mark 9:44

The Family Radio cult annihilation doctrine has another fatal blow.

The elect in the new heavens and new earth will eternally go forth and "look upon" the unsaved in hell, as they witness their worm not dying and the fire not being quenched.....and be "abhorred" by it.

How can the elect in the new heavens and new earth "look upon" the unsaved in hell, as they witness their fire never quenched, and be "abhorred" by them, if all were annihilated beforehand?

It is clear that the unsaved are "not" annihilated, even after the creation of the new heavens and new earth, and they will be a spectacle for the elect in heaven eternally....

You can't "look upon" and be "abhorred" by something that does not exist.

The Camping annihilation cult is 100% apostate and their followers will be plunged into the gates of hell.

june said...

April said,

"I have grown with the changing times and now see things in a different light."

I too see things in a different light, even the light of Scripture . . as once I was blind, now I see . . once I was darkness, but now light. (John 9:25; Eph.5:8) His Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.
(Ps. 119:105)

For He hath been pleased to shine the light of the knowledge of the GLORY OF GOD in the face of Jesus Christ into my heart. (II Cor.4:6)

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness unto God.
(1 Cor.1:20-24)

The grass withereth, the flower fadeth, but the Word of God abideth forever. (1 Pet.1:24-25)

"God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." (Gal. 6:14)

By God's grace, I am growing in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. . and after all is that not the very intent of the gospel . . that we would bear His likeness!

June

LAMBSFURY said...

"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE SHOULD BOW, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things UNDER THE EARTH; And that EVERY TONGUE SHOULD CONFESS that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:9-11

In order to make Camping's annihilation god survive, Camping claims that only the elect bow before Christ and confess that He is Lord....when the last day comes, the Bible is clear that ALL will bow before Christ. Judas will bow before Christ on the Last Day.

Those "UNDER THE EARTH" will bow to Christ and confess that He is LORD, Meaning, those alive in hell.

The Campingites take away the glory of Christ by claiming not all in history will bow before Him.

They must make their annihilation god survive, even if it means butchering the Word of God.

Campingism = Satanism

LAMBSFURY said...

"And death and hell were cast into the LAKE OF FIRE. This is the SECOND DEATH. And WHOSOEVER was not found written in the book of life was CAST into THE LAKE OF FIRE." Revelation 20:15

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were CAST ALIVE into A LAKE OF FIRE burning with brimstone" Revelation 19:20

Every single person not found written in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire, the second death.

According to Camping, the lake of fire is just a burning of bones of all those who have died thousands of years in the past. They will not have any memory of it.

However, the BIBLE says the entire dominion of Satan is cast ALIVE in the lake of fire.

Do a little word study that you boast about all the time on the word "alive" in Revelation 19:20

Since "whosoever" not written in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire - Rev 20:15, and those cast into the lake of fire are ALIVE, that means all the unsaved will be consciously resurrected and be ALIVE in the lake of fire, and there is not one verse that states this ceases.

The lake of fire, the second death, is ALL ABOUT BEING ALIVE!!! A LIVING DEATH OF AGONY.

Those in the lake of fire are "alive" - Revelation 19:20 and "tormented" - Revelation 20:10

The lake of fire has nothing to do with annihilation.

Camping and his annihilation cult has deceived you.....deceived you to greater torment in the gates of hell...

ludwig said...

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(Matthew 10:7-8)

The free materials

Special Promotions
AVAILABLE THROUGH Jul-31-2009 to Aug-07-2009









Stations available in your area
WFRW 88.1 FM WEBSTER N.Y
WFRS 88.9 FM SMITHTOWN N.Y
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AND BE SURE TO CHECK YOUR LOCAL LISTINGS.




............BOOKS..................
All are "FREE"
Who and What is Family Radio?

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Time Has an End
www.timehasanend.org

Family Radio News
Volume 44 - #1 - 2009

New Publications
Judgment Day
To God be the Glory
We Are Almost There!

Tracts
Does God Love You?

Main Library
I Hope God will Save Me The Wheat and Tares The End of the Church Age...and After.... Family Hymnal

And please remember the .......
"BOOKS" AND THE SHIPPING IS "FREE"
The phone call is .........."FR

THE FAMILY FEATURES SECTION

Family Features

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Colossians 3:16

The Family Radio Dial Local Broadcasts
The Bible Family Bible Reading Fellowship
Voices on the Air Radio Reading Circle Inspirational
Scripture of the Week

Are you seeking answers from the Bible? Maybe Family Radio's Dynamic Bible Question Form can help you. CLICK HERE to begin your search.

NOW REMEMBER "ALL THESE MATERIALS ARE FREE"
THE PHONE CALL IS FREE.........
BE SURE TO TUNE INTO ..........
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Dennis said...

We now have what is called a conundrum,regarding"lambsfury"
or Tom or Thomas Golda of N.J
Now it would seem on the surface
that Thomas who posts here as
"LAMBSFURY " is well taught of the BIBLE and one would say or could say is a very good writer just by the words he uses and one would /could think that he is "NOT OF THIS WORLD "BUT OF THE WORLD TO COME.........

BUT AND THERE IS ALWAYS A"BUT " THEN WHEN ONE VISITS HIS
"FACE BOOK SITE "

http://www.facebook.com/people/Thomas-Golda/1617476400

THEN ONE GETS A ENTIRELY DIFFERENT TAKE ON THOMAS...OR TOM ...OR LAMBSFURY....
ONE NOW WOULD/COULD SAY THAT FROM FIRST BLUSH"THOMAS IS IN FACT A MAN OF THIS WORLD BASED ON HIS FACE BOOK SITE ...SO FAR..more to come

Now one must ask this question is it possible that there is a layered "cover" for someone who "really " dislikes Harold Camping to the degree that he wishes to use language and comments that are so vitriolic in his attempt to
dis-lodge the FAMILY RADIO PRESIDENT....THAT HE HIDES AND WRITES IN THE SHADOWS THEN HAS SOMEONE LIKE "LAMBSFURY" POST IN
TOM'S NAME ??????????

OF COURSE IT HAPPENS EVERY DAY IN THE BUSINESS AND POLITICAL WORLD.
SO A PASTOR ,A PERSON WITH A DEGREE
WOULD CHOOSE TO BE VERY VERY CAREFUL WITH HOW IT WRITES AND DISTRIBUTES THE MATERIAL...IT WOULD BE A 'LAYERED COVER".....
NOW UNLESS TOM IS A JEKYLL & HYDE

IT NOW BECOMES IMPOSSIBLE TO BELIEVE ANYTHING HE WRITES FROM THE VIEW OF A "CHRISTIAN" WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE "REAL WORLD HE LIVES IN"..AM I JUDGING ?? NO HE IS ADVERTISING..LOOK FOR YOURSELF THEN YOU DECIDE!
http://www.facebook.com/people/Thomas-Golda/1617476400

MORE TO COME....SOON
Dennis O'DAY

LAMBSFURY said...

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and THE GATES OF HELL shall not PREVAIL against it." Matthew 16:18

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also DIED, and was BURIED; And IN HELL he lift up his eyes, BEING IN TORMENTS, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and THOU ART TORMENTED." Luke 16:22-25

The wonder of God's salvation plan for His elect in that He saves His elect from the gates of hell's torments. The Gates of Hell will NOT prevail against the elect, but WILL prevail against all those unsaved. Jesus is not talking about the "gates of annihilation against one's bones."

Luke 16:22-25 gives us the best understanding of the "gates of hell" that one is saved from, and what will come upon all the unsaved who ever lived.

Lazarus was saved from the gates of hell's torments.

The rich man was not.

The gates of hell "prevailed" against the rich man, as he very consciously is tormented forevermore.

The FR/LR apostates will try to water down the wrath of God, as they say these verses are just some depart out message or a torment that "one is not aware of" or a temporary torment of some kind...

Family Radio and all their apostate disciples have "fallen away" and when their end comes, they will see how the gates of hell's torments will "prevail" against them.....forevermore.

LAMBSFURY said...

"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make THINE ENEMIES THY FOOTSTOOL. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies." Psalm 110:1-2

"And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make THINE ENEMIES THY FOOTSTOOL." Luke 20:40-42

"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make THINE ENEMIES THY FOOTSTOOL?" Matthew 22:44

"For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make THINE ENEMIES THY FOOTSTOOL." Mark 12:36

"Then cometh THE END, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put ALL ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET" I Corinthians 15:24-25

"But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make THINE ENEMIES THY FOOTSTOOL?" Hebrews 1:13

"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till HIS ENEMIES BE MADE HIS FOOTSTOOL" Hebrews 10:12-13

"For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make THY FOES THY FOOTSTOOL" Acts 2:34-35

Attn: Family Radio & Latter Rain Apostates

As I Corinthians 15:25 and many other verses state, ALL of Christ's enemies will be under the feet of Christ. No matter when they lived, all His enemies will be at His feet.

The Campingites are saying that all enemies will be under His feet, but Christ is "invisible" to them at His return.

And that it is bones and feces under His feet for those who have already died.

Do you honestly believe in Camping's "invisible return" doctrine, and that all enemies will be under His feet, but nobody will see Him?

How can you be that absurd?

Fear the Word of God, and stop fearing your god Camping

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM, and they also which pierced him: and ALL KINDREDS OF THE EARTH SHALL WAIL BECAUSE OF HIM. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY." Revelation 1:7-8

When Jesus Christ the Almighty God returns, EVERY EYE will SEE HIM, and all the world will WAIL because of Him, and all enemies will be under His feet, as Christ will conquer them.

It is absurd to think that the Bible teaches an invisible return of Christ, and that all enemies will be under His feet "but they won't literally see Him."

Do you see how bad Camping has deceived you?

Do you see how bad the Latter Rain group has deceived you?

Do you see how FALSE and BLINDED you have become?

Forsake Camping's cult and escape for your lives.

Tom

LAMBSFURY said...

"Behold, these are the ungodly, who PROSPER in the world; they INCREASE IN RICHES. Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocency. For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning. If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend against the generation of thy children. When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me; Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I THEIR END. Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction. How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly CONSUMED WITH TERRORS." Psalm 73:12-19

"There was a certain RICH MAN, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also DIED, and was BURIED; And IN HELL he lift up his eyes, BEING IN TORMENTS, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and THOU ART TORMENTED. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this PLACE OF TORMENT." Luke 16:19-28

Notice the parallels between Psalm 73 and Luke 16

In Psalm 73, David is addressing those who "prosper in the world, and increase in riches."

In Luke 16, Jesus is addressing "the rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day."

In Psalm 73, David says " "then understood I THEIR END."

In Luke 16, Jesus says the rich man dies and is buried, and declares his END.

The fate of those David was talking about who were unsaved:

"Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction. How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly CONSUMED WITH TERRORS."

Jesus declares about the rich man, a picture of the unsaved:

"the rich man also DIED, and was BURIED; And IN HELL he lift up his eyes, BEING IN TORMENTS..."

"...for I am TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME."

"...but now he is comforted, and THOU ART TORMENTED"

"...lest they also come into this PLACE OF TORMENT"

The unsaved are consumed with terrors, as they are eternally tormented in the torments of hell.

The terror of torment comes upon the unsaved.

The Campingites are a false cult, and the gates of hell are upon them.

LAMBSFURY said...

From the book,"What is the True Gospel" By Harold Camping.

This was pulled off the FR website at the orders of Camping. Notice how he once believed the truth but has fallen away:

*********************
"When we search the Scriptures, we find that the word "perish," as it is used in John 3:16, does NOT mean "annihilation." In our English language when we say, "I will perish," we think of dying, of ceasing to exist. But in the Bible the word "perish" has another definition. The Bible tells us that the wages of sin is death (cf. Romans 6:23). And the living death that God has in view is to exist throughout eternity in hell. That is the predicament of rebellious mankind. That is what it means to perish.

Every day approximately 200,000 people die all over this earth. When we realize that most of these 200,000 people die unsaved and that the next conscious thing they will know is that they are standing before the Judgment Throne of God, subject to eternal damnation, then we become aware of a horror story of magnificent proportions.

The PATHETIC fact, however, is that to a high degree, the church of today is no longer aware of this message. This has been true to some degree throughout history, but is particularly true today. Obviously, there are expectations. Praise God for the expectations! But to a high degree, the church has lost its sensitivity to the central nature of the Gospel. Too many preachers no longer talk about hell. In fact, I once heard a theologian from a reputable seminary publicly say that hell is "like being in an airplane and just going round and round." In other words, he was ridiculing hell. He had better read Deuteronomy 28 again. He had better read revelation 14 again, where it says "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever" (verse 11). He had better read Matthew 13, Mark 9, and Matthew 25 again where Jesus says things like, "there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:42), and "their worm dieth not" (Mark 9:44), and where He speaks of eternal damnation (cf. Matthew 25:46). The only reason that we do not often read those passages is because they are so frightening. But we had better be frightened if we are not saved, because HELL IS REAL.

But you see, if someone does not want to face the central message of the Bible because he does not want to talk about hell, then what is he going to do with the Gospel? Unfortunately, we find that theologians begin to CHANGE the message of the Gospel to SATISFY THEIR OWN DESIRES."
************************
Notice how Camping predicted his own destiny!!

Dennis said...

We now have what is called a conundrum,regarding"lambsfury"
or Tom or Thomas Golda of N.J
Now it would seem on the surface
that Thomas who posts here as
"LAMBSFURY " is well taught of the BIBLE and one would say or could say is a very good writer just by the words he uses and one would /could think that he is "NOT OF THIS WORLD "BUT OF THE WORLD TO COME.........

BUT AND THERE IS ALWAYS A"BUT " THEN WHEN ONE VISITS HIS
"FACE BOOK SITE "

http://www.facebook.com/people/Thomas-Golda/1617476400

THEN ONE GETS A ENTIRELY DIFFERENT TAKE ON THOMAS...OR TOM ...OR LAMBSFURY....
ONE NOW WOULD/COULD SAY THAT FROM FIRST BLUSH"THOMAS IS IN FACT A MAN OF THIS WORLD BASED ON HIS FACE BOOK SITE ...SO FAR..more to come

Now one must ask this question is it possible that there is a layered "cover" for someone who "really " dislikes Harold Camping to the degree that he wishes to use language and comments that are so vitriolic in his attempt to
dis-lodge the FAMILY RADIO PRESIDENT....THAT HE HIDES AND WRITES IN THE SHADOWS THEN HAS SOMEONE LIKE "LAMBSFURY" POST IN
TOM'S NAME ??????????

OF COURSE IT HAPPENS EVERY DAY IN THE BUSINESS AND POLITICAL WORLD.
SO A PASTOR ,A PERSON WITH A DEGREE
WOULD CHOOSE TO BE VERY VERY CAREFUL WITH HOW IT WRITES AND DISTRIBUTES THE MATERIAL...IT WOULD BE A 'LAYERED COVER".....
NOW UNLESS TOM IS A JEKYLL & HYDE

IT NOW BECOMES IMPOSSIBLE TO BELIEVE ANYTHING HE WRITES FROM THE VIEW OF A "CHRISTIAN" WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE "REAL WORLD HE LIVES IN"..AM I JUDGING ?? NO HE IS ADVERTISING..LOOK FOR YOURSELF THEN YOU DECIDE!
http://www.facebook.com/people/Thomas-Golda/1617476400

MORE TO COME....SOON
Dennis O'DAY

should there be those who want to contact me concerning this matter please do so here
dennis.oday1@gmail.com

LAMBSFURY said...

The Branch Davidians & The Campingites

When we look at the teachings of David Koresh and the Branch Davidians, they claimed:

"The Prophet Daniel was told to SEAL UP the book, and that the meaning of the vision would be revealed at the time of the end. (See Daniel 12:4,9) John the Revelator was told to SEAL UP what the Seven Thunders uttered (See Rev.10:4), as the Seven Thunders were to be revealed not by John, but would be REVEALED BY THE LATTER DAY LAMB AT THE TIME OF THE END."

"In these latter days which we are living in, the two sided scroll is being revealed and fulfilled. David Koresh was the written words of the Holy Spirit being revealed and fulfilled according to the first side of the two sided Seven Seals scroll for the new testament period....And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the  WORDS are CLOSED UP and SEALED till the TIME OF THE END (our day)."

The Branch Davidians looked at Daniel 12:4 and Daniel 12:9 as a fulfillment of their cult and its leader David Koresh. They believed that David Koresh and his compound was being used by God to bring the final truth to the masses.

The Campingites have the same cult mentality. Like David Koresh and his compound the Camping compound also believes that their ministry and leader is the fulfillment of Daniel 12:4 and Daniel 12:9.

The Campingites are subtle about it as they use phrases like:

"I believe Family Radio is being raised for this purpose"

What they are saying is that they believe that FR is the special appointed divine organization where God comes down to man.

Both cults, the Branch Davidians and the Campingites are false and apostate.

Because these cults do not look to the completion of the Bible itself and the holy men that God used to write the Bible to fulfill Daniel 12:4,9 (as Christ opened the seals in Rev 5:5 and revealed and UNSEALED the FINAL truth to John - Rev 22:10), these cults are in 100% in violation of Revelation 22:18 and the plagues of hell will be added to them.

The faith was ONCE DELIVERED to the saints - Jude 1:3

The delivery of the faith is not completed via Harold Camping.

Sorry!

The Camping compound is not different than the David Koresh compound and the Branch Davidians, as both cults think they are being referred to, to complete the revelation of God.

The revelation of God is completed - Rev 22:10, Rev 22:18.

The Campingites are angry. They know the Bible defeats them. They are feeble-minded men who are brainwashed by their cult leader...

The compound is locked. The campingites can't escape. They have their marching orders. Don't let anybody out of the compound. Lock the doors. Protect the divine organization at all costs.

Panic, panic, panic in the compound.

Flee out of the Campingite compound. Flee to the Word of God.

Christ is the enemy of the Campingites and eternal torment awaits them:

"How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, SO MUCH TORMENT AND SORROW give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow" Revelation 18:7

Tom

Dennis said...

We now have what is called a conundrum,regarding"lambsfury"
or Tom or Thomas Golda of N.J
Now it would seem on the surface
that Thomas who posts here as
"LAMBSFURY " is well taught of the BIBLE and one would say or could say is a very good writer just by the words he uses and one would /could think that he is "NOT OF THIS WORLD "BUT OF THE WORLD TO COME.........

BUT AND THERE IS ALWAYS A"BUT " THEN WHEN ONE VISITS HIS
"FACE BOOK SITE "

http://www.facebook.com/people/Thomas-Golda/1617476400

THEN ONE GETS A ENTIRELY DIFFERENT TAKE ON THOMAS...OR TOM ...OR LAMBSFURY....
ONE NOW WOULD/COULD SAY THAT FROM FIRST BLUSH"THOMAS IS IN FACT A MAN OF THIS WORLD BASED ON HIS FACE BOOK SITE ...SO FAR..more to come

Now one must ask this question is it possible that there is a layered "cover" for someone who "really " dislikes Harold Camping to the degree that he wishes to use language and comments that are so vitriolic in his attempt to
dis-lodge the FAMILY RADIO PRESIDENT....THAT HE HIDES AND WRITES IN THE SHADOWS THEN HAS SOMEONE LIKE "LAMBSFURY" POST IN
TOM'S NAME ??????????

OF COURSE IT HAPPENS EVERY DAY IN THE BUSINESS AND POLITICAL WORLD.
SO A PASTOR ,A PERSON WITH A DEGREE
WOULD CHOOSE TO BE VERY VERY CAREFUL WITH HOW IT WRITES AND DISTRIBUTES THE MATERIAL...IT WOULD BE A 'LAYERED COVER".....
NOW UNLESS TOM IS A JEKYLL & HYDE

IT NOW BECOMES IMPOSSIBLE TO BELIEVE ANYTHING HE WRITES FROM THE VIEW OF A "CHRISTIAN" WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE "REAL WORLD HE LIVES IN"..AM I JUDGING ?? NO HE IS ADVERTISING..LOOK FOR YOURSELF THEN YOU DECIDE!
http://www.facebook.com/people/Thomas-Golda/1617476400

MORE TO COME....SOON
Dennis O'DAY

should there be those who want to contact me concerning this matter please do so here
dennis.oday1@gmail.com

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