Friday, July 31, 2009

Harold Camping Reviews His Debate with James White

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MP3 Available Here

14 comments:

Crue Knight said...

Dr White is wrong about the booklet "Biblical Calendar of History" being the basis of the Calendar. It's only some proofs.
Books that hold more info about the calendar is "Adam When" and "Time has an End".
View them here:
http://www.familyradio.com/graphical/literature/frame/

Please look at the verses as proof and argue the verses.
Back up your claims with verses.

The Bible DID NOT teach we are to look at the Author's (eg Paul, John) intentions as the true meaning. Please use verses to back your claims.

Dennis said...

We now have what is called a conundrum,regarding"lambsfury"
or Tom or Thomas Golda of N.J
Now it would seem on the surface
that Thomas who posts here as
"LAMBSFURY " is well taught of the BIBLE and one would say or could say is a very good writer just by the words he uses and one would /could think that he is "NOT OF THIS WORLD "BUT OF THE WORLD TO COME.........

BUT AND THERE IS ALWAYS A"BUT " THEN WHEN ONE VISITS HIS
"FACE BOOK SITE "

http://www.facebook.com/people/Thomas-Golda/1617476400

THEN ONE GETS A ENTIRELY DIFFERENT TAKE ON THOMAS...OR TOM ...OR LAMBSFURY....
ONE NOW WOULD/COULD SAY THAT FROM FIRST BLUSH"THOMAS IS IN FACT A MAN OF THIS WORLD BASED ON HIS FACE BOOK SITE ...SO FAR..more to come

Now one must ask this question is it possible that there is a layered "cover" for someone who "really " dislikes Harold Camping to the degree that he wishes to use language and comments that are so vitriolic in his attempt to
dis-lodge the FAMILY RADIO PRESIDENT....THAT HE HIDES AND WRITES IN THE SHADOWS THEN HAS SOMEONE LIKE "LAMBSFURY" POST IN
TOM'S NAME ??????????

OF COURSE IT HAPPENS EVERY DAY IN THE BUSINESS AND POLITICAL WORLD.
SO A PASTOR ,A PERSON WITH A DEGREE
WOULD CHOOSE TO BE VERY VERY CAREFUL WITH HOW IT WRITES AND DISTRIBUTES THE MATERIAL...IT WOULD BE A 'LAYERED COVER".....
NOW UNLESS TOM IS A JEKYLL & HYDE

IT NOW BECOMES IMPOSSIBLE TO BELIEVE ANYTHING HE WRITES FROM THE VIEW OF A "CHRISTIAN" WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE "REAL WORLD HE LIVES IN"..AM I JUDGING ?? NO HE IS ADVERTISING..LOOK FOR YOURSELF THEN YOU DECIDE!
http://www.facebook.com/people/Thomas-Golda/1617476400

MORE TO COME....SOON
Dennis O'DAY

should anyone want to contact me concerning this matter do so here

dennis.oday1@gmail.com

PuritanCalvinist said...

Crue Knight,

Please look at the verses as proof and argue the verses.
Back up your claims with verses.

The Bible DID NOT teach we are to look at the Author's (eg Paul, John) intentions as the true meaning. Please use verses to back your claims
.

You are begging the question. With what hermeneutic do you want me to interpret those verses? The problem with going to the Bible to prove a hermeneutic is that any passage you point to in order to prove your hermeneutic will likewise need interpretation, which presupposes a hermeneutic. Hence, what hermeneutic should I use to prove the correct hermeneutic from the Bible? And why should I accept that hermeneutic?

The reality is that the Bible presupposes proper hermeneutics. The fact that the Bible is revelation should be sufficient enough to point to the idea that the Bible is written in normal human language. The reason is because revelation presupposes that God is giving us his message in a way which his people can understand. That does, indeed, presuppose the grammatical-historical method, as we use that language when we interpret any other human language.

God Bless,
Adam

Crue Knight said...

As long as you use the Bible to define words, the Bible would be the interpreter. Not you.

If we had to understand the grammatical and historical language of the Bible, it puts "sinful" man to interpret almighty God's Word.

Any how will Children who cannot accept God to be saved? Or those with mental problems, ect.?

PuritanCalvinist said...

Crue Knight,

As long as you use the Bible to define words, the Bible would be the interpreter. Not you.

However, isn't that a hermeneutic? And what is meant by "using the Bible to define words?" How does one do that? And where can you find that in scripture?

If we had to understand the grammatical and historical language of the Bible, it puts "sinful" man to interpret almighty God's Word.

No, because, the grammatical/historical method is simply based on the way human language works. The grammatical/historical method is what we mean when we say that we use the words of the Bible to interpret the Bible.

God Bless,
Adam

Dennis said...

ATTENTION : Thomas Golda
aka >lambsfury

my question s
How is it that just the week before the interview with White & Camping
that you wrote IN AGREEMENT WITH CAMPING ????
Then as a tree branch fell from a tree and hit you on the head you changed and wrote AGAINST Camping!
I think as i remember I did or someone did mention Jekyll & Hyde
or like in the days of the old west there were "GUNS FOR HIRE"
IS IT POSSIBLE THAT IN THIS DAY
THERE ARE "WRITERS FOR HIRE"
I really wish your name was "Joe "
so I could say say it isn't so "Joe".
But alas you may be what we shall call a "Starvin Writer "named Tom

Who just dropped a "BOMB"
here is some of what I have just found ,you seem to have the ability to write out of "BOTH SIDES OF YOUR MOUTH"
WE ARE ALL WAITING FOR AN EXPLANATION,a short one,a long one
whatever!
....................................................................

By Thomas Golda

While there is much evidence that the Great Tribulation ends on May 21, 2011, with "those days after the tribulation" beginning Sunday May 22, 2011, in fulfillment of Daniel 12:12-13, the "rapture" does not take place during those days after the GT, it takes place at the very end of the world when Christ returns. Believers will be here on earth for the final 153 days to the last day of the FOT.

Remember, for 23 years is the GT. This was God's judgment upon the churches. Believers were not raptured. Believers are here "on earth" while this is happening. Noah was "on earth" while the judgment occured in his day, Lot remained "on earth." The Israelites were "on earth" while the plagues occured to the Egyptians.The following are from Thomas Golda ....personal studies
etc

http://pablo33319.home.comcast.net/~pablo33319/Personal%20Studies.htm

http://home.comcast.net/~pablo33319/Biblical%20Calendar.htm

Thomas I note at this site that you in fact AGREE with Harold Camping that the wold WILL END IN MAY OF 2011......

http://pablo33319.home.comcast.net/~pablo33319/Works%20of%20Others/Timeline%20of%20the%20End%20by%20Thomas%20Golda.htm

SHOULD ANYONE WISH TO WRITE ME PLEASE DO SO HERE
dennis.oday1@gmail.com

and thank you
Dennis O'Day

Will someone please advise mR.wHITE that the world will end in may of 2011 so says Camping
so says LAMBSFURY...aka Thomas Golda

and so the story ends.......

mark lofgren said...

Adam said,
" And what is meant by "using the Bible to define words?" How does one do that? And where can you find that in scripture?"

God gives us the proper hermeneutic in 1 Cor.2:13:
"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

Now if we use the Bible to define what a spiritual thing is we may find (by God's Spirit showing us) that the definition for a "spiritual thing" is found in John 6:63:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you are spirit, and are life."

So we see from this verse that a spiritual thing is the word of God. We can now accurately paraphrase 1Cor.2:13 to say "...comparing scripture with scripture."

Marvelously, we just compared scripture with scripture to define a biblical word.

Another example is Gen.27:28
"Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine:"

In this verse, what is the spiritual meaning of the word dew?
We go to Deut.32:2
"My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:"

Essentially, the definition of dew is: the word of God.

Now if you have a good exhaustive concordance like Strong's or Young's it will help you to learn what the spiritual meaning of "grass" is in Deut.32:2

Go ahead...give it a try!
Be careful though, God's word is like a two-edged sword; the word "lion" - for example - can be a synonym for Satan AND it can also refer to Christ.

May God richly bless you

mark

Lockheed said...

Ok, so to clarify. All those of you defending Mr. Camping's method and views are defending 1) A date setter who has already proven to be a false prophet (1994). 2) A modalist who believes that the Son IS the Father and therefore one who denies the Trinity. 3) One who believes there is another "covenant" in which the Gospel is somehow May 11, 2011. 4) One who believes this "covenant" no longer includes the Lord's Supper which was to be done "until He comes" (1 Cor 11:26).

Basically, you want us to take a bunch of numbers that he selects and add, subtract, multiply, divide them as he directs... of course you'll get the same numbers he gets, cause he's already defined the conditions of the problem. This isn't Scripture, folks, this is numerology pure and simple. And when May 12, 2011 comes around, will you submit to Scripture and the church that Christ established or continue in the rebellion that brought you to Camping's folly to begin with?

PuritanCalvinist said...

Mark,

God gives us the proper hermeneutic in 1 Cor.2:13:
"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual
."

Again, the issue is very simple. You are citing passages of scripture and words to prove your hermeneutic. However, you need a hermeneutic in order to understand these scripture passages and these words. I am simply asking where that hermeneutic is coming from.

Anytime you interpret a text of scripture by words, or anything else you are using a hermeneutic. That is why I would say it is begging the question to say that you get your hermeneutic from the Bible.

God Bless,
Adam

mark lofgren said...

Adam,

"Anytime you interpret a text of scripture by words, or anything else you are using a hermeneutic. That is why I would say it is begging the question to say that you get your hermeneutic from the Bible."

Exactly, we get our hermeneutic from the Bible. The Bible is the dictionary that we are supposed to use to define the Bible. It is like it's its own language - the language of God. In order to interpret it we look at the rest of what the Bible has to say about a certain thing. It is very time consuming. Sometimes we think we have found truth on a matter then we later might read a verse that puts our previous conclusion in contradiction. Then we know that we have not found truth and we did not interpret it properly. That is why 2Tim.3:16 states:
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for...correction..."

You see because man is inherently sinful and not trustworthy; no matter how intelligent a man may be in the things of this world, he cannot understand the things of God unless he has been given the Holy Spirit to dwell in Him. The Holy Spirit understands the things of God which are known to us as His word.
The natural (unsaved) man tries to understand God and His word through the wisdom of this world (nature, science, astrology, astronomy, history, etc.) and through his imagination and tradition. But we cannot know God this way. We need His Spirit to teach us. Please read all of 1st Cor. chapter 2.

Try asking youself; "what is truth, can we truly believe that everything that we are taught in school and from the media is really true? Can we prove it? Have the scholars really supplied enough evidence to support their conclusions (for example evolution)or are we just taking for granted that because they have a degree that they must know what they are talking about.
For example, before Copernicus - or who ever it was - suggested that the world was round and revolved around the sun, the church, which had the Bible; believed the scholars of their day that said the world was flat. But the Bible says that the world is round (Isa.40:22). Who did they believe?
Interestingly, the churches of today have embraced evolution to be true, even though God is clear in His word that He created the world and its inhabitants as they are in six days. They will say that the six days are allegorical or represent say a thousand years to each day or something. Yet they won't acknowledge that God wrote the Bible in parables and that we are to interpret it metaphorically. Instead they are trusting in man's teachings; men that do not trust God period or even acknowledge Him.

May God richly bless you!

mark

PuritanCalvinist said...

Mark,

I still don't think you have escaped my criticism. In order to look at how those words are used in other places, you have to interpret those words in those other places. My question is, "What is the standard you are using to interpret those words in those other places?" Again, there is no way to get a hermeneutic from the Bible. Using a text [in this case, the Bible] as a foundation for interpretation is self-defeating, because that text, itself, needs to be interpreted.

Exactly, we get our hermeneutic from the Bible. The Bible is the dictionary that we are supposed to use to define the Bible. It is like it's its own language - the language of God. In order to interpret it we look at the rest of what the Bible has to say about a certain thing.

Actually, the Bible is both a divine and a human book. It seems to me that the heart of this kind of hermeneutic is to strip the humanity from the scriptures. It is extremely platonic, as most "eschatology now" movements are.

God Bless,
Adam

mark lofgren said...

Hello Adam,

If you are here just to criticise and debate then this will be my last post. However, if you are curious and trying to understand what God is saying to us in His word, then perhaps I will continue to try and help you understand - LORD willing.

It seems that you are trying to define something that comes from an almighty, omnipotent God whose intelligence is far beyond what man can possibly imagine. He did not design us to have the capability to understand Him completely, partucularly that He is three gods in one. We cannot understand that and how He could just speak this universe into existance.

No more can man search out His wisdom from the Bible than He must give is the understanding to do so.
Mark 4:11-12 tells us that God withholds knowledge of Himself and the kingdom of God from those He intends not to save and He gives understanding to those whom are His chosen elect.

Certainly, He makes the Bible understandable enough for those whom He does not save, that they maybe convicted of their sinful nature and know that they are accountable to Him and His justice. In Fact, He writes enough of His law on everyones heart so that their conscience will convict them of their sin.

In so far as hermeneutics go, I guess I failed to mention that part of discerning or defining God's word is to determine somewhat of the context surrounding the words in question.

For example; Jesus states in John 6:44 that no man can come to me except God the Father DRAWS him..."
Now we can certainly figure out that verse easy enough except for the Key word DRAW. What does it mean that God has to draw us. A child may think that God has to illustrate us, but a seasoned reader of English may know that the word DRAW can also mean persuaded or pulled by force. Meteors are pulled or drawn to earth by its gravitational force.
But, what we should do is look at the original word because the Bible translators of the Textus Receptus or original manuscript may have chosen a wrong word. The original Greek word used for DRAW is "helkuo" and is used 7 other times in the New Testament. When we look at how they are used and gathering enough of the context around it we can see how God defines that word:

Joh 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew <1670> it, and smote the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear."

Joh 21:11 Simon Peter went up, and drew <1670> the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three:"

Ac 16:19 "And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew <1670> them into the marketplace unto the rulers,"

Ac 21:30 "And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew <1670> him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut."

So we can see from these passages that the word "helkuo" means a forceful, irresistable pulling.
Incidently, those numbers are the Strong's concordance classification of that word.

So, we can understand perhaps that to be drawn to Christ by God the Father (JN.6:44) is an irresistable pulling. Does that sound like free will?

May the Lord richly Bless you,

mark

Dennis said...

To those who read here and believe that JESUS CHRIST did "NOT SPEAK IN PARABLES".
Then you believe that there are
"HORSES " IN HEAVEN....Correct???

REV 6: 2 to 5..........

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

..Dennis O'Day
for those who would care to connect me do so here.........
dennis.oday1@gmail.com

Tony-Allen said...

That broadcast was perhaps the most painful hour I've ever listened to.

Iron Sharpens Iron 30 Day Archive

"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend"- Proverbs 27:17